Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven II

[finbar]

Sale's weak point is definitely the coal face which is all the sillier because Diamond only this season signed a couple of duds. Poor judgement in that regard, amongst some very good judgement in other regards.

Wade's problem is always going to be his size. I've seen him several times and he really is minute. Greased lightning but minute. Makes Shane look like Goliath. Still, Shane developed his game to counteract his size. Hopefully Wade can too.

Good to see Strettle back too. Hopefully he stays fit. Yes, farewell to Easter, along with the Hapes and Fluteys (and Tindalls) of this world. You really do have to wonder where J**** was looking for those couple of years. English rugby stagnated.

[Havak]

I suppose with hindsight one would say a lock with no coaching experience wouldn't know what the makings of a good centre requires? Which is why he picked lock-a-likes in those positions.

It was a crushing disappointment that one of the best on field skippers I have ever seen failed to transfer that into coaching. It was a total turnabout - as skipper if plan A failed he went plan B. If player A failed at plan A then the player was cut a new one.

As a coach he became loyal to medicority and failure to the point it became incomprehensible to this old pie eater. There may be factors I do not know that tied his hands - the oily spectre of Rob Andrew may well have featured. I hope to read the second autobiography one day to find out.

[finbar]

Lock, no coaching experience - they don't have to mean disappointment. He's obviously intelligent, but cut through with a stubborn, very conservative streak. Risk isn't an option. Combined with the likes of Wells and Ford - of the same cloth - it was a diabolical combination.

[Havak]

Very much so. John Wells was very briefly head coach at Tigers. After Richards and before Howard. He took us to the top of the pile in his year in his charge - but the title burglars won the play off against us in Jonnos last game. My point - if there is one - is that Jonno played with and under Wells. They were products of the same forge and whilst not quite peas in a pod both are inflexible in similar ways.

Did we ever note by the way that the coaching survivor - Wiggy Rowntree - was the only one who came out the player review smelling of roses? He is also former Tiger from the same forge of course. A little more capable of adapting perhaps - he made Sheridan into a passable international prop after all (eventually).

You are also quite right about size of course - the modern game likes fast-monsters on the wing. Little guys have to that much better just to get a look in - but Wade has that potential. Then again four years ago so did Varndell.

I see Falcons have put Tait on gardening leave - inevitable I think. Loved the old boy as a player (most Lions fans would agree) but Falcons are a big challenge for a green coach.

[finbar]

You don't need to be a wing monster. Digby Ioane is only around 5'10" and 14 stone but he's monstrously strong. Wade is 5'8" but maybe needs to do some strength work. Shane, who's actually an inch shorter than Wade, seemed to strengthen himself over his career because he didn't finish up the swattable lightweight he started out. Varndell was never good enough to reach any great heights. He lived - and still does - in the tram tracks and relied - and still does - on everyone else doing all the hard work. Plus he had - and still does - the defensive nouse of a rabbit with mixo.

Rowntree also seems to be a different personality from his ex-coaching mates. Though if he were responsible for playing Matt Stevens on the wrong side during the WC when he was clearly out of his depth there ...

Tasty little event tonight at Ravenhill. Ulster have their very decent front row back which will help enormously. I'll be interested to see Cave again, too, their 13. I've come across a few Ulster and Ireland fans who rate him as a prospect. Ulster, at home, decent front row ... I'm leaning in their direction.

[Havak]

I don't blame you at all - it is a fearsome place to visit. I make them strong favourites.

I see you are not a fan of Varndell. I think all you say of him is acurate. But even though he is now an insect I have to say he has scored some of the most remarkable tries in club competition that I have ever seen - interceptions that should simply not have been possible from an onside position and of course that remarkable embaressment of Michael Horak (the exiles fullback) where Tom ran the length of the pitch and dotted the ball for a try as Horak ambled slowly towards it. In short he has all the faults you describe but has given me some cracking entertainment at Welford Road (when subbed last week he was politely applauded off - he is still well liked by Tigers fans).

*edit* I don't know if yourself or kOc have seen the Shingler ruling from the IRB Finbar but I don't like it. Until a man has been capped at senior level he should be able to choose his own destiny based on the qualfiications he has open to him and this lad was triple qualified (as can often happen in the UK). That Wales do not run an A side does not mean to me that their U20 side can be representative of senior level instead. It skews the playing field. Basically this lad should be able to play for Scotland if he so wishes in my view. What next - will the WRU challenge Morgan (who apparently both has English parents and was born in England) playing for England because he has lived in Wlaes for a bit?

Every so often the IRB looks an even bigger mule than the RFU?

[finbar]

The Morgan case is entirely different. He didn't represent Wales in any shape or form. In fact the whole Morgan story is a media beat-up. An Englishman decided to play for England. End of. It might have been a story if he'd chosen Wales.

I agree that U20 teams shouldn't be designated as "second" senior teams. The IRB needs to include that in their already complex law. There's a massive turover in U20 personnel, often a whole new batch of players every year, so it effectively ties a mass of young players to (in this case) Wales. "A" teams are an altogether different matter. In Shingler case, though, he was obviously very badly advised, and the Scots clearly hadn't done their homework. Reading the IRB's ruling, though, and Wales' response, it's pretty clear that arbitration is on the cards. I think we'll see Shingler available for the Scotland squad on a without prejudice basis.

[Havak]

I like to break things down into simple aspects. The WRU are wearing black cowboy hats, the IRB dunces caps and Scotland their "free beer if you join us" baseball cap (well used and a bit tatty).

The lad does not want to play for Wales - end of.

[Havak]

I like to break things down into simple aspects. The WRU are wearing black cowboy hats, the IRB dunces caps and Scotland their "free beer if you join us" baseball cap (well used and a bit tatty).

The lad does not want to play for Wales - end of.

[finbar]

So definite on the matter that you posted it twice. I understand the WRU's point. Whatever the rights or wrongs, the IRB accepted the U20 team as the designated "A" team. Better players than this chappie might well try this on. It's up to the IRB to clear up a very silly situation by looking at its laws.

[Havak]

Darn DP. Actually the site went belly up for several mins as I clicked submit.

Frankly it will only ever matter to me if an England player tries to jump ship. Only that doesn't happen of course.

[kittenOFchaos]

Ulster are putting Leicester to the sword and out of the Cup.

Ulster are much improved from what I saw of them earlier in the season. Back then they certainly had the grunt, but were limited in terms of converting it to points...Pienaar and Trimble are sorting that out. The physique of the best Irish forwards is far superior to anything waiting in England for the 6 Nations.

Also Dan Cole sucks - your team is going to the sword and you get yourself binned for being a gob-****e.

Edit: Ulster 41 - Leicester 7

[finbar]

Dan Cole gobbing, Ben Youngs throwing tantrums. Pretty much summed it up. Tigers were out-thought, out-sped, out-muscled, out-everythinged, and didn't look remotely like coming up with an answer. That was the alarming thing. Hullo Cockers. Pienaar, on song, is just pure class. Youngs would do well to watch a replay of the Bok's display. Unfortunately I don't think Ben is the sharpest stud in the boot repairer's kitbag. Plus 12Trees' inexperience was unfortunately exposed and Allen as a second kicking option only gave posession back to Ulster time after time. But the game was lost elsewhere in the forwards. I wasn't sure Tom Croft was even on the field till he got his first touch somewhere near half time. I have a mate who's an Ulster fan and his life is perpetual frustration. Ulster, he says, have a Best XV capable of great rugby, but no depth. A couple of injuries and they're average at best. But I did like the look of Cave at 13. He's got some brains and skills.

[kittenOFchaos]

The Ulster crowd were singing 'Sing Low, Sweet Chariot' for the last 20 minutes of the game. They were making a point that Celtic rugby is superior to the Aviva Premiership and it is true. Munster, Leinster and now Ulster are superior teams and the teams are largely home-grown.

When I look at the players Ireland can select this 6 Nations and compare them to what England has - well, I think England will be flattened at Twickenham at the end of a gueling 6 Nations.

[Havak]

Largely home grown? All three Irish prvinces and all the Welsh provinces are well loaded with foreign players. Finbars summary of the game even praised one of them if you noticed.

Celtic League more competitive than the Premiership? An interesting reaction to one result at a ground where Tigers (and everyone else) have always struggled and Ulster are usually formidable.

Pro12 is a rather weak League with at least six permanent whipping boys, five moderate sides and one top class outfit (Leinster). Tell me how great this league is when Welsh, Scottish and Italian sides start to progress past the pool stages of the HC. Until then the fact that two Irish provinces might leave their pool doesn't make this league a better standard than the Aviva in my view.

None of which excusses the implosion of Tigers last night. In a quarter century of watching Tigers I've seen them destroyed like that only a handful of times and every time there has been an underlying malaise (indeed such implosions have often been the end of coaches as I remember Deano being pushed after Stade handed us our butts at home). I think messir Cockerill needs to start looking over his shoulder - the board doesn't tolerate failure for very long at Welford Road.