Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven II

[Havak]

But it does keep us amused Finbar so please do persist.

Finbar has put his finger on it somewhat. Apples and pears. I would add that I belive that the only indicator of comparative international quality is international results. Arguing an international side is better than it's results because it's club sides are doing rather well is an associative cognitive leap that I simply do not follow.

Additionally the England team is pretty much made of foreigners

Could you name your 'foreigners' please. I think you may be a year or four too late with this assertion. I can identify eight out of thirty three in the EPS who were not born in England (and I'm not allowing here for the ones amongst the eight who have English parents which, in international law, makes them English if they so wish).

I didn't realise however that Barritt was of Bok origin (like Botha and Stevens) until your assertion allowed me to discover it. Saracens really are a Bok franchise arern't they? Super 16 their next stop?

I do find Simpson interesting as well. Born in OZ to a Kiwi mum and English dad? We should have known he wasn't test quality (or NZ/OZ would surely have snapped him up first).

Although there was a tussle over Ben Morgan it is worth noting the boy was born in Bristol. Wales only got a sniff because of his residency from playing for Llanelli.

[finbar]

Joe Simpson - no hair, alabaster complexion - wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in an Australian summer. On the other other hand, bald and pasty-faced, he had to be a Pom.

The only really interesting thing about a country's international -v- club performances is the often inexplicable disparity.

Barritt is definitely a Bok. As I've observed before, S. Hape with a worse accent.

Interesting to note that both Flutey and Hape - wrapping themselves in whatever the England flag is these days for England selection - have both now shed the flag to set up elsewhere. Well, Hape at home, admittedly. Home being New Zealand. Not England.

[kittenOFchaos]

Could you name your 'foreigners' please. I think you may be a year or four too late with this assertion. I can identify eight out of thirty three in the EPS who were not born in England (and I'm not allowing here for the ones amongst the eight who have English parents which, in international law, makes them English if they so wish).

Finbar does make a good point as regarding Wales.

Havak, I'm pretty sure I was on the boat last year and have stayed on for the voyage. Whilst it is flattering these players want to play for England, it misses the point of having different Nationalities. We may as well have a British Commonwealth team - I fancy that would be pretty good.

It is remarkable we can get some out and out South Africans playing for England at the expense of home-grown talent.

1. Alex Corbisiero - born in New York City. Lived there till he was 5. English mother. I have no issues with him playing for England as he has an English mum and played all his rugby in England.
2. Brad Barritt - Born in Durban, Souith Africa. Played for the 'Emerging Springboks' before settling for England. This chap is South African through and through and played the system.
3. Dylan Hartley - Born in New Zealand and lived there for 14 years.
4. Manu Samoa Tuilagi - The clue is in the name.
5. Mouritz Botha - Another through and through South African.
6. Matt Stevens - South African through and through and one not playing very well atm.

So currently, 5 players that aren't home-grown in an 'Elite Squad' of 30. I'd say that apart from Matt Stevens, those players are in the first 15.

The fact is that Stevens, Botha, Hartley and Barritt know they aren't good enough to get into the squads for NZ/South Africa and England RFU is very happy to have them as they don't rate the home grown alternatives. Manu I'm more sympathetic towards as his family are over here and appear to be settling permenantly - but it could be claimed that financially it is a far better move for him. Flutey and Hape's selection last year just made a mockery of the current setup.

[finbar]

Hartley's Gran is English. You'd want to keep your fingers away from the old bint's mouth, too, as well as not offer her an eye into which she can insert one of her gnarled digits.

I think the more pertinent and interesting tack in this whole argument is the lack of English born-and-bred talent. There's some starting to emerge, some very promising talent, but there has been a cycle of pretty ordinary standards, hence the preponderance of mainly Boks.

[Havak]

The EPS totals 33 players and you have missed a couple of the non-natively born players kOc.

Manu's family have substantially been here since the 1990s when the eldest brother arrived in the junior code before switching to Union. He was at school her from 13 I think? Manu I really have no problem with- he has made a choice (he could have jumped for an NZ school scholarship I am sure?).

Flags of convenience I do agree with you on - all the Boks and the Hape's and Fluteys.

With regards to Cocaine Matt hasn't he got an English parent? Not that I want him in the EPS really.

I never picked you up on the excuse you used for Scotland though - isn't the population of Wales about the same as Scotland? They don't seem to import players quite as much (though they very much do do so).

Also I do disagree with you on Exeter. They are aboput 20 points above their real placing as they benefitted hugely from the international windows. I hope Saints make the spot because, frankly, they deserve it far more.

So Redpath has gone. No real surpise there chaps?

[finbar]

Well, he's off to Glaws, Glaws playing Sale on the weekend, aren't they? All a bit potentially messy. He's built a nice backline at Glaws but you could never accuse him of building a winning combination. Far too many losses against teams they should have humped with that talent. Glaws' story for many years, what?

[kittenOFchaos]

I never picked you up on the excuse you used for Scotland though - isn't the population of Wales about the same as Scotland? They don't seem to import players quite as much (though they very much do do so).

I was quite clear - to quote myself: "Scotland has of a small pool of professional players."

The Welsh remain pretty fanatical about rugby, but in Scotland we waste our time with football. Rugby is a minority sport. More Italians play rugby than Scots.

[finbar]

More Italians play rugby than Scots.

And just about as well.

[kittenOFchaos]

And just about as well.

Once Italy get someone who can place kick they'll start winning games. We're quite generous to the Italian coaches, but none of those fools actually trained up a place kicker of any worth. Likewise Scotland needs to get backs that can thump the ball and make decent clearing kicks. So many of our problems come from an inability to clear our lines.

[finbar]

Funnily enough, the Wallabies have struggled for a consistent goal kicker since - heck, I can't remember when. It's a skill that can be taught and practised until the proverbial milkers come home but if you haven't got the natural talent, forget it. Nick Mallett put a massive amount of time and effort into Mirco B and he - Mirco - is no better or worse than the recent Wallaby kickers.

[Havak]

He's off to Sale Finbar - bit of a typo by you there? Interesting choice for the reason you mention. Glaws have all the same problems they had under Dean Ryan still.

You were very clear kOc. I was having a bit of fun with you given your repeated (incorrect) attempts to assert that the English EPS is made up almost entirely of foreigners.

The SRU actually make the RFU look extremely Professional in how they run and promote the game - Rugby could be far more popular in Scotland if it was better organised.

Of course kissball it utterly dominant in England too - Rugby still attracts those who like a thinking persons game.

As for the Scottish national side I think many of it's problems come from a focus on 'form' over 'function'. They often play some very nice looking rugby through the hands without ever actually getting over the game line (and when they do often immediately turning over ball). It's becoming a running joke that they flatter to deceive and frankly they finished where they deserved in the 6N. On this thread we can speculate that they should have beaten England or should have beaten Italy all you like - the fact is they didn't because they don't take their chances and cannot close games out. Kicking is only part of the problem there I would suggest. Turnip is another part I suspect.

[finbar]

How can he be off to Glaws from Glaws? D'oh! Anyway, I read somewhere that there's mention on a Glaws website that Dean Ryan might return. Can't imagine it myself. Apart from p*ssing off the supporters last time, what has he learned about coaching in the meantime? There's a cultural problem around that team - they don't know how to win when it counts - and it's been there for a long time. New broom time.

I agree about Scotland. Tons of possession for nowhere near enough results. Racking up the passing stats going sideways behind the gain line, a drift defence only having to drift and wait, tackled on the gain line, end of attack. They need an attack coach to intill some guile, some deception - changes of angle, dummy runners, whatever, anything that might actually give a defence pause for thought. Italy has much the same problem. The difference is that Scotland actually has a couple of players who could manage it.

Enough said about Turnip.

[Havak]

Glaws can put in a bid for Lancaster after the RSA tour as he will probably be available. Two pointless games against barbarian bok sides have been added to the tour.

I will persist in calling the gain line the game line. After several decades of so doing I am a lost cause on that one.

[finbar]

Game line - gain line - advantage line.

Tomayto, tomato.

Which reminds me of one of the great cartoons - as in print, not Tom & Jerry - I saw a number of years ago. A composer slumped at his piano after an all-night composing stint, exhausted, unshaven, hundreds of screwed up bits of paper on the floor as evidence of his efforts. His missus, just out of bed, in dressing gown and curlers, is looking at a piece of paper on the piano, the end result of his marathon slog.

She's saying: "You took all night to write 'You say tomato, I say tomato'?"

[Havak]

A classic, with that exquisite sub-text regarding the female psyche.

Big Alesani off to Japan as predicted a few months ago. It's the reason they signed the young winger from Warriors. Been a great servant of the club so wish him well.