Rugby - 6 Nations, Heineken Cup, You Can't Beat A Northern Hemisphere Winter!

[finbar]

If there were more evidence of relegation improving the quality of GP rugby I'd be more sympathetic. What happens is that the promoted team battles to stay up against the lower tier clubs who aren't much stronger. Saints are the only exception in recent times, and they were a bit of a special case.

I think Cipriani will enjoy himself. The more creative backlines will be up his alley and he certainly won't have the media sitting on his shoulder to the same extent. Regardless, he clearly has attitude (to authority) problems, and I've never been convinced that he's real class. Capable of high quality play, but riddled with weaknesses. Whether he has the aptitude to address the weaknesses is the question.

[Havak]

It most certainly is. Will be most interesting.

Saints are a special case only because they have access to Barwell's money of course.

It's not really a question of the impact on quality for me - I'm just not comfortable with these twelve clubs sides saying to all others that "you may never aspire to join us".

[LDiCesare]

Relegation certainly plays an important role in France. Old glorious clubs like Agen or the Racing Club de France fell from French champion or finalist to the second division in a few years.
The Stade Français in the past, Toulon, the Racing this year showed that promoted clubs could be competitive on the first or second year in the 1st division. Of course, this is the case because these clubs managed to get a lot of money, but then French clubs also get relegated because they run a too big deficit.

[Havak]

I understand your point. When the game went Professional here some very old and "big name" clubs self destructed - Moseley and Coventry going broke were the main examples but sides like Orrell (VD came to us from here Finbar) and West Hartlepool spiralled down the leagues very rapidly. Some other clubs (like Bristol and Leeds) yo-yo up and down.

I like relegation - even if I dislike the effect it has on the style of rugby (becuase i agree with Finbar that is affected).

Good news on the player front though. Skivington is moving from Wasps to Tigers next season - meaning that is one less Wasp for me to have to be complimentary about! Finbar will recall I have touted him for years (a far better skipper and lock than Borthwick is)

[finbar]

If you recall, I picked Skivington in my Alternative England 15. Very good player. Big, very strong, mobile, and a leader. I had him alongside Nick Kennedy.

I think the French case is different to the GP. There was, and still is, big money available. Toulon, for example, can't compare with the likes of Leeds and Worcester.

[finbar]

Not around here much because I'm currently neck-deep in writing a telemovie, first time back at work after a five-year holiday. I'm out of practice. That aside, in terms of the relegation discussion, I've just discovered, via the otherwise nonsensical S. Jones of the Times, that the promoted team doesn't share the same funding as the other GP teams until its second season, if it survives its first season, and the relegated team receives a parachute payment almost guaranteeing - unless they totally stuff things up against the lesser, underfunded oppo - they will return the following season. So it's a relegation system in name only.

[Mablir Dorlig]

We would have to franchise up for a sealed system to be pallatable here. The Celtic League did this very successfully (he grudgingly admits).

I think you'll find a large number of Welsh Rugby fans who would disagree with this - there are some issues around why the "Regions" were selected Llanelli, NEath & Swansea all heavily indebted to the WRU having been "rescued" by them in recent years, Cardiff always heavily reliant on the WRU and Newport the only Club who could tell the WRU to get stuffed (they are affiliated to both the WRU and RFU) and one of only 2 Welsh Club sides to own their own ground.

Additionally there was the shameful way that the Ravens were treated - they were one of teh strongest on-field Regions but they were never a match made in heaven with Cardiff in between Bridgend and Pontypridd and then the shameful way that the Ravens were treated by their owner (who has since gone on to move the Celtic Crusaders RL outfit from Bridgend to Wrexham )

Very succesful? Just ask any Club Rugby fan unless you are one of the chosen few following one of the "big four" (Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff & Newport) I'm sure they feel the same as I do.

[kittenOFchaos]

Sale survive as Worcester suck even more than we do.

[Havak]

You must be very relieved.

MD I got that totally wrong. I was trying to say the franchise system had largely worked for the Celtic League on the marketing level and it was the only way I could see a closed league working in England - I didn't mean to suggest it was universally popular with fans of great old clubs. I am sure it is not!

But then when have the WRU or RFU ever cared about clubs?

Finbar glad you are exercising the writing muscles - jolly good luck with it.

[LDiCesare]

I'm watching Connacht - Toulon (half time of the half final of the European Challenge).
Toulon, which is already qualified in half-final of the French championship, sports a grand total of 3 French players among the starting 15. Much as I like Toulon, as it gave us players like Herrero, Gallion, Champ, Hueber, Califano, Dominici, Mignoni, and also my first rugby coach, I would hate it if a team of foreigners ended up winning the French championship. This mix of Argentinians, South Africans, Australians, Tongans, English and even a few French may be a good team, but I'd have a hard time liking it.

[finbar]

At what point do - or will - Toulon fall foul of the law that requires the percentage of the squad to be "French" in terms of qualification or development?

I could watch Toulouse play day. If I were a supporter, I'd probably have torn out most of my hair. Or what's left of it. Leinster are a very good team lacking clout up front. Toulouse overwhelmed them without, until late in the game, burying them. Gee, the Irish prop stocks are low. Neither Munster nor Leinster seem to be able to find a decent one, hence Ireland's problems up front.

[LDiCesare]

I missed the second half of Biarritz-Munster. A pity seeing the result. If anyone saw Flannery being penalised, did it look like the same as what he did during the Tournament? I haven't seen any picture.
Anyway, nice to know the Europe champion will be French this year.

[finbar]

The two best teams made it through. Perhaps Leicester at the top of their game might have threatened, but they weren't when they needed to be.

Flannery tripped Karmichael Hunt. Took his legs in a sort of late sliding tackle - a la s***** - then made sure by hooking one of Hunt's leg with his foot while he was in the air. The further the game went, the more Biarritz's forward power told. That was the fundamental difference over the weekend - French forward power. Oh, and Toulouse's ability to confound and destroy a defence when they needed to.

Extraordinary effort from Harinordoquy yesterday. Broken nose, obvious rib damage, but on he went. And on. Biarritz will have to be better than they were yesterday to beat Toulouse. Traille's return should solve some of yesterday's failings. But - two French sides - who can predict?

[LDiCesare]

Biarritz have an edge over Toulouse though, in that it's their last match of the season adn their whole season rests on that result, whereas Toulouse still has the French championship to handle. So Biarritz will have the time to rest when Toulouse will have at least one, maybe 2 matches before the final. And maybe yet another match afterwards.

[finbar]

True. Fascinating contest. Toulouse, I suspect, are stronger up front and have the firepower and potential magicians in the backs. Plus they will have a 16th player with them on the field - Ian Balshaw.