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[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Shut down corners were the best example.

Closely followed by defensive linemen who are so good that they require 2 men to block them, leaving holes open everywhere else on the line.

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by snoopy369
IDP are silly because they don't have any impact on the game, really - fantasy stats normally measure the impact a player had on the game, but IDP don't do that effectively; a player can play poorly but make lots of tackles. Further, defensive players just aren't that interesting, a few stars aside; having the entire team as your rooting interest is usually a bit more interesting (As that's a good part of the point of fantasy - to give you a rooting interest in games you have no interest in normally).

I think "silly" is a little severe. It's just another way of enjoying the game. By having 3 or 4 defensive players, you create a lot more draft scenarios. As far as rooting interest, having 3 IDPs out there is plenty interesting, across more teams. (After all, no other part of FF is team-oriented.)

The fact that you might draft a non-Pro bowl player who can get you 8-10 points a week is no more odd than drafting DST in the penultimate round and swapping it out as needed based on matchups.

Defense and special teams have no relationship with each other, and DST team draft status is largely unpredicatble after the top 3-4 teams. One might be tempted to call it "silly."

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Obviously its not obvious then. The only thing I'm mocking is your idea that something which is 50% of the game (it isn't, you forget special teams play) should get more than 10% of the points. And my response is to say... why? Special teams is far more important than its given credit for in fantasy sports (field position is usually huge in close games).

Sadly, Yahoo does not offer a "returner" position ranking, so there's no way to address this on an individual basis. I'd love to find a way to reward coffin-corner kicks, touchbacks on KOs and net punting average, but you can't get it in free Yahoo leagues. They also group linebackers with defensive linemen, and CBs with safeties. Hey, you work with the tools available.

Regarding special teams: I agree they are important, and undervalued in FF. Jaguar's settings reward only blocked kicks and TD returns. And in the highly likely scenario that neither of those events happens in a given game, special teams become literally worthless. IDP can help overcome that.

With IDP, you can give points for return yardage (and TDs), no matter what "position" the returner plays, offense or defense. Thus, special teams standouts like Hester and Terrance McGee have value and are given their due. Actual starters who return punts (like Nate Burleson) have enhanced value. If they have a long non-TD return, they get yardage points. And each team owner gets to decide -- first when drafting, then again every week -- whether the consistent tackles of an Urlacher are worth more than the boom/bust of an explosive returner.

I would venture to guess that many FF players who end up flipping a coin between Arizona and Denver DST at the end of the draft don't even know who returns kicks when they make that choice.

I've played both ways, multiple leagues each year for the past 6 or 7 years. I find IDP more interesting and enjoyable, by far.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit

There are plenty of ridiculous default settings in Yahoo. A fumble that you fall on is the same as a simple tackle, but it's -2 points here. Why not "fumble lost" instead?

Fumbles are bad play, regardless of which team the ball ends up bouncing to. That's why I'd prefer penalizing fumbles to penalizing fumbles lost.

@snoopy; I had -1 for all missed FGs because it's simpler. I'm pretty happy to get rid of the penalty for 50+ yarders, and even 40+ yarders.

I do like to punish bad play, though, so -1 for FGs under 40 yards definitely should stay.

The other thing we should think about is where we want return TDs to count. I don't want to double-count them, because that's a little bit weirder than the double-counting for passing TDs.

Return yardage is also complicated, because teams have started kicking out of bounds to Hester and Cribbs, and because bad teams get more kickoff returns.

1. Make defensive scoring more dependent on points allowed? YES/NO
2. Missed field goal penalty?
Under 40 yards/Under 50 yards/All distances
3. Return TDs count for defenses/Return TDs count for individual players/Return TDs don't count

I'll take any of the options listed. I am leaning towards YES for number 1, and probably one of the first two options for number 2. No strong preference on number 3.

[-Jrabbit]

1. Yes
2. Under 40
3. Return TDs count for DST only

In my view, a fumble not lost is the same as a simple tackle. Being the same value as an INT (-2) is provocative, which is why I view it that way.

Regarding return yards: There's nothing complicated there. It's about who gets the most yardage, and the opponents kicking OB is a factor to consider (though, realistically, Hester is the lone recipient of that treatment). I sincerely doubt anyone will draft a crappy defense just to get the attached return yards. But adding yardage can be a viable factor in deciding between two statistically similar defenses.

[snoopy369]

I don't much care for Fumbles not-lost being counted either; it may be bad play, but often a recovered fumble isn't the same as a tackle even - like a QB recovering a bad snap, or a RB dropping it and picking it back up again.

Yes, <40, and DST if I have to choose (though I strongly feel you should count it for both).

[Jonny]

1. Yes, definitely.
2. Under 40 only. Everything under that should be automatic for most kickers, and misses should be penalized thus.
3. For DST only.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I would venture to guess that many FF players who end up flipping a coin between Arizona and Denver DST at the end of the draft don't even know who returns kicks when they make that choice.

Who cares? The point is that fantasy players on the whole don't play for Special Teams stats. Its all about the offensive position players.

[-Jrabbit]

I think your viewpoint is quite clear, thanks.

But please, continue repeating yourself endlessly.

[Tuberski]

Why penalize for missed field goals at all? They don't take away points in real football.

But, I don't really care either way.

ACK!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
I think your viewpoint is quite clear, thanks.

But please, continue repeating yourself endlessly.

Pot. Kettle. You know the rest.

[-Jrabbit]

Your inability to accept alternative viewpoints is impressive in its consistency and self-absorption.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Gentleman, your pistols. On count of ten, turn and fire.

::runs::

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
1. Yes
2. Under 40
3. Return TDs count for DST only

In my view, a fumble not lost is the same as a simple tackle. Being the same value as an INT (-2) is provocative, which is why I view it that way.

Regarding return yards: There's nothing complicated there. It's about who gets the most yardage, and the opponents kicking OB is a factor to consider (though, realistically, Hester is the lone recipient of that treatment). I sincerely doubt anyone will draft a crappy defense just to get the attached return yards. But adding yardage can be a viable factor in deciding between two statistically similar defenses.

INTs are -3. Since I'm upgrading QB scoring, QB penalties should also be upped.

People get more yards on KRs than PRs. Bad defenses get to have more KRs. This results in a weird thing that penalizes good defenses and rewards bad ones. OTOH, in a non-IDP league, you can't give defenses return yard points anyway.

[-Jrabbit]

INTs are -3.

My bad.

While bad defenses get more kick returns, good ones get more punt returns. which mediates things a bit. Mut, as you note, that topic is moot if you can't do return years in Yahoo DST.