Apolyton Fantasy Football Sign Up

[-Jrabbit]

Yeah, a couple of pick-6 plays by the offense or a missed tackle on a kick return and your defense can look a lot worse than it actually plays.

I have to disagree with snoop on KRTD and PRTDs. If they count as "offensive" TDs for individuals, then a Hester TD return would seem to count twice -- once for him and once for the Bears DST. Which means killing return TDs for the DST. Which would totally eliminate the possibility of a return TD for the 26-28 teams who don't have a fantasy-worthy offensive starter returning kicks/punts. All to benefit 2-4 guys who might go as late-round fliers?

I dunno, maybe I'm missing something in snoop's proposal. If anything, I'd like to see the scoring potential of DST increased.

[snoopy369]

They certainly would count twice, just like a QB throwing a TD to a WR counts twice. That's not the end of the world They should count for the KR/PR himself because it's an element of their performance. Players who play PR/KR get tired, and don't play quite as well in their primary position; that's the 'penalty' in exchange for the KR/PR points.

[snoopy369]

BTW, i've always felt that points allowed should factor more I don't care how much it's related to the offensive performance, ultimately it's points allowed that matters.

[Jaguar]

I'm taking that suggestion seriously. I basically used Yahoo! defaults, except I bumped up safeties. (Having them be worth only 2 points is ridiculous. They not only give you 2 points, but they're also a takeaway.)

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by snoopy369
They certainly would count twice, just like a QB throwing a TD to a WR counts twice. That's not the end of the world They should count for the KR/PR himself because it's an element of their performance. Players who play PR/KR get tired, and don't play quite as well in their primary position; that's the 'penalty' in exchange for the KR/PR points.

The imbalance TD pass counting twice (QB/WR) is the reason there's a national trend toward awarding only 4pts for passing TDs in FF.

But with a passing TD, at least everyone has a shot at it.

With kick returners, it's fairly unusual for that guy to be a regular starter on offense. Most often, it's a marginal WR4/5 or a nickel/dime back. It is assuredly NOT exhaustion from running 23.4 yds and getting tackled. So your proposal rewards a handful of guys at most, and penalizes the rest, especially anyone who plays defense.

Is this just a campaign to make Hester draftable?

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by Jaguar
I'm taking that suggestion seriously. I basically used Yahoo! defaults, except I bumped up safeties. (Having them be worth only 2 points is ridiculous. They not only give you 2 points, but they're also a takeaway.)

There are plenty of ridiculous default settings in Yahoo. A fumble that you fall on is the same as a simple tackle, but it's -2 points here. Why not "fumble lost" instead?

I understand your point on safeties, but they happen so seldom, it's really just background noise -- much like the blocked kick.

I would support a significantly higher reward/penalty system for points against.

[SlowwHand]

Let me throw something out to kick around.
Does the "seldomness" (if that's wasn't a word, it is now) make it all the more worthy of note? Like I said, I'm only playing devil's advocate. Yet, it's not all that hard to think about. Should we not reward events not standard? Throwing to a RB, and it loses yards, still get a point for a completion, twice. Bringing up the abstract here. Bear with me.

[snoopy369]

A safety is a significant defensive accomplishment (in the manner of normal defensive play). A blocked kick is basically random, from the kicker's point of view; it's a significant accomplishment for the defense, though. Hence why I think blocked kicks/xp's should not be penalized beyond the missed penalty, while blocked kicks should count something for the defense/ST.

Looking at that, actually, Jag - why do you count negative points for long FG misses? Standard is to do (4-points for making it), so 0 points for a 40+ miss, 1 for 30+, 2 for <30... I don't see why missing a 50 yarder should be meaningfully penalized. Most of the time those are end-of-game or end-of-half kicks that don't really hurt the team if they're missed, anyway... you'll just end up penalizing the GOOD kickers who are actually asked to attempt them...

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm not clear why "breaking the wedge" is a bad argument. It seems just to be inconvenient to the argument made for IDP (Defense is such a big part of the game, they should be counted more to balance with offense, blah, blah, crap... Special Teams is pretty damned big too).

Kick Returns are lumped with Defense, because that's just what's left. That's really what D/ST is. What's left. Because no one plays fantasy football to decide among who's the linebacker with the most tackles. They play for QBs, RBs, and WRs. Everything else is just gravy.

Basically breaking the wedge is a way to respond to "Over half the game of football compressed into one roster slot, worth about 10% of team scoring" with "who cares?". It's like as Sid says, when fun comes into direct conflict with reality in a game, fun wins.

And yes, someone who is into sabermetric analysis (as if the "micro" aspects are somewhat worse) can decide not to make their fantasy league worse off by add useless complexities. Its why I like playing with 3 OF positions in fantasy baseball instead of a LF, CF, and RF.

[Berzerker]

IDP is absurd in part because it generally ends up with bizarre settings where your "defense" consists of two linebackers and a defensive back who returns kicks.

And this is a problem, why? Actually there's only 2 maybe 3 guys who return kicks, it would be better if we all could have a KR/PR playing defense enough to matter. My only gripe with return yds is that usually means that team is getting whooped, but garbage time is garbage time.

Here are some differences in scoring I can see from Jag's league and last year's 2nd league

comp 1
inc -.5
rush yds 12 or 15 yds per pt (I forget which it was)
ret yds
rec 1
rec yds 20/pt
safeties weren't 5 (team diff than IDP)
dont remember if we pen QBs for sacks
IDP

[SlowwHand]

Couldn't you say that kick returns are the start of the offense?

[-Jrabbit]

'm not clear why "breaking the wedge" is a bad argument.

Then you're choosing not to see the obvious. Please note that I was critiquing the quality of your mockery. I don't consider this an argument.

Oh, and I agree that -1 for missing long FGs is unnecessarily penal.

Regarding safeties, I agree that they have a high value. But I would argue that one safety (awarded 5) is not worthy of outscoring a defense that holds a team to 7-13 points (awarded 4) across a full game.

[snoopy369]

IDP are silly because they don't have any impact on the game, really - fantasy stats normally measure the impact a player had on the game, but IDP don't do that effectively; a player can play poorly but make lots of tackles. Further, defensive players just aren't that interesting, a few stars aside; having the entire team as your rooting interest is usually a bit more interesting (As that's a good part of the point of fantasy - to give you a rooting interest in games you have no interest in normally).

[SlowwHand]

Shut down corners were the best example.

What about the 2nd league?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Obviously its not obvious then. The only thing I'm mocking is your idea that something which is 50% of the game (it isn't, you forget special teams play) should get more than 10% of the points. And my response is to say... why? Special teams is far more important than its given credit for in fantasy sports (field position is usually huge in close games).