Rugby - Tours Tours Everywhere!

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by Havak
...failure against tri-nations sides

Just as well England aren't a tri-nations side then. 3 out of 4 now, yeah?

Originally posted by Havak
I'm getting some mileage out of this over rated Wales idea too.

Considering my only favourable comparison was to Tom Varndell, which in absolute terms amounts to "passable as a professional player", I'd have to say any overrating is coming all from your corner.

I wonder if you'd still rate TV over Bowe had Leicester actually managed to get a hold of him...

[Havak]

There is no doubt Wales are the best International side in the World and Ospreys the greatest club side ever. Even better than the mighty Blues. Oh sorry - I must still be drunk as I seem to be so totally deluded there! Damn that Bishops Finger (5% abv)

Perhaps I should ask Wales for tips on beating tri-nations sides? That would be how many victories this century again?

If you can’t understand that Tigers as a side fatally under performed against Ospreys and that the one game isn’t sufficient to judge Tom then I can’t help you. When those Leek coloured blinkers come off I’ll be happy to debate player quality with you again.

Well another heavy defeat it was – but I’m still not downbeat. We have got more out of the tour than I expected, it is early transitional days and the future very much starts tomorrow. As of tomorrow it is Jonno’s England.

You have to bring far more physicality to the All Blacks to stand a chance against them – the tight five didn’t do that job. The centres were exactly as expected – one dimensional tanks. And yet I still don’t feel disappointed.

When I ask myself why that is I think it’s this – unlike 2004 these boys didn’t capitulate. They played positive rugby. Took positive options. The youngsters did okay and will have learned so much from the experience.

Care, Varndell and Tait let no one down when given their chance – and if only the latter pair could have taken their chances in the first half it might have been closer (the result was never in doubt but we could have pushed them closer).

I am ingtrigued by that last English penalty though - shocking decision making from the English lads allowing NZ another try that should never have been possible?

Come the autumn I expect we will be more competitive with a new skipper and hopefully one of the first choice fly halfs available – plus I expect Ellis in with Care (Danny has better distribution than Wigglesworth). Ditch Palmer and Borthwick for a younger combo (Skiv, Deacon, Blaze, Brown – take your choice) and maybe go for Wilson if Sheridan cannot find form. Put Mears back where we found him and use Paice and Chuter. Find permanent space for Croft – blood Skinner. In fact I think the future has the potential to become a lot brighter.

Cue the Radio 5 phone in with Matt Dawson – some Welsh chump phones in any says “the difference between England and Wales is that whilst Wales may lose England are beaten”.

Can someone a little saner than this Taff please tell me WTF that means? No wonder Dawson stifled a giggle.

I must have a small whinge though – I asked the Abs not to injure Flood and they went ahead and did so anyway!

I could rail on Kaplan too – who still has no clue about the scrum. I could point out that the Hilton nonsense upset the camp (as I am sure it was intended to) – but it might seem like sour grapes.

So well done ABs – impressive to perform like that so early in a rebuilding phase. I think it is down to South Africa to apply the forward pressure needed to close you down (hard to see the Aussie pack doing so?).

Now I am off to get ready for Italy B versus the Boks, with all the Churchill finals this afternoon. So I am adopting the Finbar approach of honesty:

Q: “Are you going to watch Rugby all day?”
A: “Yes”.

Thanks for that most useful tip Finbar.

Oh and jka – you are wrong to under rate Varndell. I hope he gets the chance to prove that in Cardiff in the new year.

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by Havak
There is no doubt Wales are the best International side in the World and Ospreys the greatest club side ever. Even better than the mighty Blues.

Well not anytime soon anyway, I fear. News over here is the WRU and regions/clubs have come to an agreement re: cutting down on NWQ players, which will be interesting for future squads, I guess...

Fantastic plan though, isn't it? "We aren't producing enough high quality Welsh players; in lieu of working on developing our own playing talent, we'll just kick the foreigners out".

Originally posted by Havak
If you can’t understand that Tigers as a side fatally under performed against Ospreys and that the one game isn’t sufficient to judge Tom then I can’t help you.

Do you always have a prepared response to any criticism of TV? A reason why he wasn't on top form on any particular day?

"He wasn't playing" would have sufficed.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Care, Varndell and Tait let no one down when given their chance – and if only the latter pair could have taken their chances in the first half it might have been closer (the result was never in doubt but we could have pushed them closer).

Except for the two disallowed AB tries. The pass wasn't forward, flat at best or worst, and Varndell wasn't taken out in the air. The two were competing in the air for the ball. Not that it matters.

In fact I think the future has the potential to become a lot brighter.

Matthew Tait is highly skilled but not a full back. Enthusiasm doesn't equate with cool, calculating positioning and tackling. But he can stay. I'm not sure where, probably #12. Care looked nippy. Flood disappointed me. His contribution to creative attack was to launch mis-directed bombs.

I suppose the big question is whether Cipriani will step up. Does he have the potential to be an orchestra conductor? If not, someone needs to be.

Enough said about the centres. Rob Andrew was made to look stupid. The ABs ran both through and around his midfield defensive wall. The AB #13 proved you can be dynamic in both defence and attack in midfield. Stirling Mortlock does it Test after Test. Who are the England contenders?

You're right about the locks, etc.

My big problem with the likes of Varndell and Topsy - and Sackey, too - is that they're all finishers. I don't think that's enough any more.

Can someone a little saner than this Taff please tell me WTF that means? No wonder Dawson stifled a giggle.

Smartypants semantics.

I must have a small whinge though – I asked the Abs not to injure Flood and they went ahead and did so anyway!

Obviously self-inflicted, as you well realise. Hopefully someone at Leicester will teach him basic tackling technique. Though given Leicester's crap defence this year, that might be asking too much.

So well done ABs – impressive to perform like that so early in a rebuilding phase. I think it is down to South Africa to apply the forward pressure needed to close you down (hard to see the Aussie pack doing so?).

Hard? Bacon rashers might fly. Though after the work out the Italian B pack gave the Boks today, the Boks could struggle against the ABs.

Now I am off to get ready for Italy B versus the Boks

I thought Italy B acquitted themselves well. Never really threatened the scorer, but defended impressively. I'm not sure the Boks' minds were always on the job. The young Australian #10's kicking lacks precision but it might come with experience. He certainly showed more than Masi ever did at #10.

So I am adopting the Finbar approach of honesty:

Q: “Are you going to watch Rugby all day?”
A: “Yes”.

Thanks for that most useful tip Finbar.

Just remember to duck. Or have sufficient hand-eye coordination to put down the pint and catch whatever it is that's hurled at you.

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by finbar
My big problem with the likes of Varndell and Topsy - and Sackey, too - is that they're all finishers. I don't think that's enough any more.

Exactly. Varndell was stuck to the tramlines for most of the match; I didn't notice the wingers getting into midfield until 65 minutes. It's not just that he's workshy either - he only runs in straight lines. I don't recall once seeing him picking a line off the midfield, no runs off the shoulder - nothing. Even when the ball got into the 13 channel, and even when it was Tait joining the line at that point, he still remained one alignment over, just dragging play towards the touchline and killing any space. You don't pass to Varndell unless it's a scoring pass. I think the fact that England kicked into the corner for him as often as they passed to him is pretty telling. He's not a footballer.


As for Tait, if Cipriani is going to play at 10, then a Cipriani-Tait 10-12 would be a turnstile. I think England have got better 12s anyway, and if Tait has failed to step up to 13, then a place on the wing is IMO, probably best for him. Tait and Strettle, with Lewsey back at FB, would IMO make a far better back three than was on display today. Not sure if that wing pair would be natural finishers though?

[finbar]

But they know how to score tries. The advantage is that they can run lines and angles as well as being mighty quick. I like what I've seen of Strettle, I've just never seen enough of him. He's always hurting himself.

[finbar]

M-hm. So David Strettle is the Duracell bunny. Presumably the race is now on to coin a nickname for him. Any suggestions?

[Havak]

Not just a fantastic plan jka – but where those players are South African or any foreigners who qualify as European it is actually an illegal plan
.

Do you always have a prepared response to any criticism of TV?

More than one as it happens.

TV didn’t acquit himself well after that particular game – as Finbar will tell you. But he was only on the field a few minutes too – he could hardly turn a disaster around (that was prepared response number 3).

Except for the two disallowed AB tries. The pass wasn't forward, flat at best or worst, and Varndell wasn't taken out in the air.

Perhaps not – though flat for the SH seems to be slightly different to the NH – some b******* about momentum normally.

And they might have gotten away with the latter if the player challenging was the one who then grounded the ball – he wasn’t because all he achieved was taking out the defender. I wouldn’t have been too surprised to see it given though. Of course had they scored that one they wouldn’t have been gifted the last one so swings and roundabouts?

It was still a pretty impressive performance by them – though it has cost them McCaw and Williams (the former being a huge loss?).

Who are the England contenders?

Allen (Gloucester) had a strong Churchill cup. It is a big step up from Scotland A to the All Blacks but he might be a future 12. Tait at 13 perhaps? The Wasps lad Waldouck might make a fine 12 or 13 for England too. As a forward orientated chap I would still like to see Hipkiss in the mix.

Smartypants semantics.

He was deadly serious. He seemed to suggest England lose the mental game before taking the field. I suspect he didn’t see either test as with all England did get wrong they were never lacking for effort and commitment.

I thought Italy B acquitted themselves well

I agree. And I tend to think the ABs will have taken more from the June tests than anyone else. Could be a tasty tri-nations.

Just remember to duck

I just about survived. Just.

England won the Churchill cup by the way – against Scotland A (who bizarrely look a better outfit than Scotland!).

Jordan Crane was man of the series – so I was a happy lad.

Lewsey I am afraid is finished with England – you don’t pick 32 year old wings at this point in an RWC building phase. Jonno should stick with the youngsters jka criticised and try and turn them into smarter players – someone managed this with Tuquiri so it isn’t impossible.

And if Mr Strettle was the Duracell bunny I wouldn’t put money on him having an immediate England future either!

[Havak]

It's not just that he's workshy either - he only runs in straight lines. I don't recall once seeing him picking a line off the midfield, no runs off the shoulder - nothing. Even when the ball got into the 13 channel, and even when it was Tait joining the line at that point, he still remained one alignment over, just dragging play towards the touchline and killing any space.

Work shy?

Do you think they were playing to a (limited) gameplan structure or that they had a 'heads up' roving remit?

We all tend to have to judge each others players based on their international appearances - and it certainly shows here as you have surely never seen these boys at club level. You might have watched them you have certainly never seen them.

Yes Finbar - it is more smartypants semantics.

What worries me about Wales is, if they are truly as good as they currently think, why can't they get anywhere close to tri-nations sides and why don't their provinces ever mount a serious challenge in the European cup? When did a Welsh side last contest the European final? 1996? The year before the English sides entered it? And they lost. As jka will know.

[finbar]

Gee, Mr Strettle was a busy boy. Hammering away all night like the Duracell bunny, but still found time to join Topsy, Danny Care and Mike Brown in the alleged incident with the 18 year old, subject of the so-called rape affair.

[Havak]

Disappointing.

In the way that they conducted themselves. And in the fact that all four had decent potential. I do not see them making the new Elite squad now.

Wasps (and Lions 2009) coach Ian McGeechan speaking to BBC Radio 5:

"It is important that management and senior players are seen to set a very strong example, Martin knows what it takes to win. He would set an example that just wouldn't allow this environment to develop."

"The young players sometimes have to be told exactly what is expected of them. Often you have got very strong players in the group who will do that."

"Martin and Lawrence Dallaglio are two I can think of, who would just not have let this happen. The great thing about Martin is he knows what it takes to win games and he can relax, but relax in the right way."

*edit* I'm just glad Varndell wasn't involved - jka would have had me on the rack with many a quip about only passing if he was going to score?

[finbar]

Yes, shame it wasn't the likes of Noon, Tindall, Borthwick, Palmer, etc. Though they wouldn't have had the imagination. Or the fitness to do Duracell bunny impressions. Strettle will be the loss, and probably Care. If they are punished, I imagine it will only be for a period of time.

I read the McGeechan piece yeserday. He's absolutely right. Meanwhile, Rob Andrew continues to absolve himself of any responsibility. Is that a thick skin he has or a very thick skin? Apparently the players' minders - whomever they were - played a part in ferrying the girls back to the hotel.

Like on the weekend, Varndell would fumble short of the line and blow it.

[Havak]

It is a very thick skin - I don't think it's IQ makes triple figures that is for sure.

And now I shall cease exchanging amusing wordplays with a Professional writer as it can only end badly for me I suspect.

[Havak]

Somerville has signed for Gloucester opening the door for another younger player to make the AB squad....

[finbar]

You beat me to it by moments. My question, though, is this - how many Premiership teams front up regularly with two England-eligible props? I'm sure you get my drift.