Rugby - New Year, New Coaches, New Laws

[Havak]

This is primarily of interest to me but I will share it anyway.

I hadn't looked at the squad in detail this season yet - it's an expanded squad of 49 because of the RWC and believe it or more we have more non-English players than you thought.

27 of this squad are 'English'
36 of this squad are 'British Isles'
42 count as ‘Domestic’ players under EU or reciprocal agreements (French, Boks, Italian - and bizarrely one of the two Argie born props apparently counts as Italian too)

So does that mean we only technically have 7 foreigners on the books? For League purposes it actually does believe it or not!

And that tells you why so many clubs have such low ratios of English players – because they can get away with it.

For the record we have:

1 Aussie - Finnegan
2 Boks - Wentzel, Pienaar,
3 Kiwis – Mauger, Herring and Stankovich (I’ll list Stanks here as despite playing for England U21 and being ‘English’ qualified he was actually born in bandit country I believe).
1 Fijian – Rabeni
1 Samoan – Tuilagi

I haven’t looked at the development squad – there are certainly more foreign lads in that.

Of the English players in the senior squad there are a fair few who are the sons of former Tigers (both the Youngs, Dodge, Vesty and Matt Smith) – and that is one of our strengths over clubs like Sarries – despite being Professional and highly successful Tigers are still in touch with their rugby club roots. I think some clubs have lost some of that as they fled to soccer grounds - please note I do not count Sarries amongst those most affected there as they have maintained a fairly rugby oriented fan base (with Wasps for example there is a real soccer like glory chasing element to their fanbase now – I ran into many of these in twickers last May).

[Andydog]

Interesting stats. I can understand how such high numbers of foreigners have eventuated. In England, the clubs are a separate entity to the RFU and the national side that the RFU produce. Clubs and the RFU are not connected by ownership. All that exists between them is a series of contracts for the release of any English players the clubs may have that the RFU may want. The contracts do reward the clubs somewhat for producing English players, but the clubs have complete autonomy to self design their own purpose and goals. And these goals are inevitably commercially driven, so they'll import players to win trophies.

From what you've told me, I'll grant you that a team like Tigers would appear to have set itself up to not only win trophies, but also to retain a large English player base. Fair play to them.

But, in contrast, NZ clubs are directly linked to our national team, and their primary objective is to produce players for the All Blacks. I know we've discussed the pros and cons of importing foreign players before, but I still maintain that the NZ system produces a higher calibre national team.

[Havak]

The NZ system certainly makes a lot more sense in many, many ways - particularly the way players are protected because the union is in total control from the top down.

Do you need a drink now I have agreed with you?

The problem here is that same system would require me to trust the RFU executive more than the Tigers executive - and I simply do not as it stands.

[finbar]

We've certainly batted this around before, but any set up in which the country's controlling body actually controls the players has to enjoy an advantage. The national team becomes the priority. The RFU had their chance, apparently, years ago.

[Andydog]

Cripes Havak, that's the 2nd time you've agreed with me. Are you on the wagon or something?

[Joe Kick Ass]

Mike Phillips and Justin Marshall are playing in the same team for the Os this weekend.

Marshall at 15.


Note: And Blues have less "foreigners" than either sarries or tiggers, btw...by far.

[Joe Kick Ass]

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/02/15/laws_experiment_is_variation_o.html

too f*cking right.

[finbar]

Mighty Wasps effort in the second half yesterday. Great rugby. I've never quite understood the fuss about James Haskell because I've only ever really seen him in an under-performing England back row, not always his fault. The boy can sure play. At this level anyway. A centre I'd never heard of - Dominic Waldouck - showed some touches of class, too.

Watched the new experimental laws in action in the first round of S14. The nett result, despite the NH doom-mongers' predictions, is simply that the ball stays in play longer. One match was crap, but that wasn't the fault of the laws - it would have been a crap match regardless.

The change with most impact is the shift from penalty to free kick for various infringements. It keeps the game moving, which isn't a bad thing. The change that prevents the ball being kicked out on the full from the 22 if the ball has been passed back into the 22 only means that the kicker now bounces the ball into touch. Some already have that skill, others will need to perfect it.

The only ones with anything to fear from the changes on display are the fat England players who will fall in a heap without their usual breathers.

I note that the recalled French full back has now broken his leg. I feel sorry for the chap, but relieved for LdiC's blood pressure levels. And mine.

[finbar]

After that second half, Havak, you should demand a refund of your season ticket. It was utter drivel. The discipline wasn't just poor it was totally absent, and the decision making was inept. Added to which you had three points more than you should have because of an idiotic touch judge. There's something wrong somewhere at the club. I still think London Irish are flattering to deceive. They were handed the game today. On the other hand, England need that London Irish #9 next week. He's the sort of #9 England has been missing since Harry Ellis disappeared. The bonus with Hodgson is that, unlike Harry Ellis, he's not insane.

I note that Ayoola Erinle has overcome his defensive deficiencies by avoiding the contact area altogether.

[Havak]

Blues have got far more foreigners than Tigers – they are after all chock full of taffs.

Interesting column by Edwards – but more interesting were the comments in reply to it. Amazing how quickly it descended into simply calling him a ‘bone headed Pom’.

I’m suspicious about the ELVs myself – but I’ve not seen any games under them yet so have no reason to disagree with Finbar.

Well, except on this:

The only ones with anything to fear from the changes on display are the fat England players who will fall in a heap without their usual breathers.

Okay I know I shouldn’t really bite but outside of Regan and Vickery (who both clearly shouldn’t be being selected) and Nick Easter (who simply isn’t match fit yet) who else is unfit in this fashion?

Any way on to Tigers – you are quite right Finbar. What an exercise in frustration. Basic discipline and simple decent handling would have secured that game easily. It is not often you truly see a side lose a game (as opposed to the opposition actually winning it).

I think Paul Hodgson probably does deserve a run at scrummy next weekend. I quite liked what I saw of the Exiles hooker too – Paice is the current incumbent for the Saxons. I still cling to the forlorn hope Ashton will find room for both Haskell and Croft in the side. But then a man who picks an unfit Nick Easter over Jordan Crane clearly has trouble locating his a*** ahead of his elbow.

Erinle was canned from Wasps after a serious leg injury – but with rumours it was because Edwards had had enough of his lack of improvement in defence. He doesn’t seem to have changed with his move north.

Sorry to see the French FB break his ankle – he was one of our best chances of actually scoring a try for starters.

Cripes Havak, that's the 2nd time you've agreed with me. Are you on the wagon or something?

Even if I had been, after yesterday I no longer would be.

When I think you are right I am quite happy to say so.

[finbar]

The problem with the Edwards article is that it doesn't say much beyond the usual SH boo. It couldn't, because the laws hadn't then been tested. Apart from in a Kiwi provincial comp, not the S14 A comp or whatever he called it. I thought the responses, daft as a lot of them were, mirrored the article. It's too early to draw serious conclusions from the experimental laws, they were just my first impressions. Some of the S14 players still haven't grasped them.

One of the Sky commentators was calculating that the only way to play both Croft and Haskell is to play Haskell at 8. It won't happen. But, gee, it would give the back row some mobility and skill.

Every England player looks fat in that white muscle suit.

[Havak]

Except Balshaw who looks skinny regardless?

Edwards is known for holding strong views - I very much doubt the absence of any empirical evidence would ever hold him back from airing them.

Haskell and Croft would be a brave choice. Messirs Andrew and Ashton are not known for such bravery.

Longer term England need to find a role for both men as well as for Crane - because for me Crane looks like he will supply something else we are missing, that being good on field captaincy. He impressed me when he had the Armband at Welford road for the Saxons game with Ireland A.

The problem is I think I am discussing what will happen under the next coach....

[LDiCesare]

who else is unfit in this fashion

Mmmm... He didn't say international English players, did he? So my answer would be...

Havak?

[Havak]

Guilty as charged.

[finbar]

Poor old Pumas. They're desperate for Test matches. Fair enough. And they deserve them. SANZAR invited them to play Tests against the Tri Nations teams, matches to be played in amongst the Tri Nations because current scheduling makes it possible. One stipulation, though. It has to be a real Pumas team. Fair enough, too. Problem: the Pumas best are tied up with NH clubs and are unlikely to be released. Where to from here?