How can you not love Brian Burke?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher
More Oil fan responses to the Lowe re-signing:

Yup. There's lively discussion.

What none of those guys take into account though, is that a GM can be fired pretty easy if the results aren't there.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher
I've just simply asked you to explain why you support this extension three times now. You've done nothing at all except squirm and grumble about something that happened two years ago.

That says a lot to me.

What? That your reading comprehension is no better than your command of basic facts?

I'll say it one more time.

I think he's a good GM.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither


What? That your reading comprehension is no better than your command of basic facts?

I'll say it one more time.

I think he's a good GM.

Don't mock my own reading comprehension, when I specifically asked you to elaborate on that several times -- eg, why do you find him a good GM?

Is it the phenomenal salary Penner got? The Nylander fiasco? The Pronger fiasco? The long-term high-budget contract given to Souray?

There's a lot of HUGE questionmarks that prevent the vast majority of people calling him a "good GM". I want you to say why these things are good, or why a huge amount of fiascos in a short period of time doesn't stop someone from being a "good GM".

[notyoueither]

I'll mock your reading comprehension right after I laugh at you wondering why I didn't respond seriously to a Godwin in a ****ing sports thread.



Now I mock your reading comprehension.

:mock:

And I heap scorn

:heap scorn:

OK. Now, you want to know why I think Lowe is a good GM. OK.

He has made some wicked trades in the Oilers favour over the past number of years. He's drafted well. He had the balls to use the RFA system to improve the club. He's made good trades and signings at opportune times for the organisation.

Yes, he has not been perfect.

The return for Pronger leaving, while it is too early to tell how much we got for him, seems a year later to be too little. He got dazzled by Lupul, but on the other hand he turned that negative into a large positive (Pitkanen). Worst case, he delayed doomsday for about 30% of the return on Pronger. Best case, he turned that part of Pronger into a player who could become a top 5 or 10 defenceman in the league. Not too shabby, on top of another good defenceman and 3 decent draft picks.

Now Smyth... I prefer Penner at $4.25 to Smyth at $5+ (he got 6.25). At the end of the contracts Smyth will be 36, Penner will be 29. I was a fan of Smyth's, but not $5miilion a year on an aging and abused back worth, and I said that on these very boards well before the deadline and the trade I'm pretty sure. So, it was pretty clear that Smyth wanted the big pay day and that he would go the UFA route. Given that, Lowe completely reamed Snow at the deadline. Again, not too shabby.

Things I think Lowe and the organisation did less than well...

The handling of Bergeron and the defence last year. The assumption going in was that dmen would be available. They weren't really. Bergeron was pushed too hard on the wrong team and when he couldn't do it he had to be moved. Moved he was and the return could be questioned, although it is early to do that.

The timing of the Pronger trade. More was available that summer, and apparently the owners were willing to pay Pronger to sit (or so they say now). The Oilers didn't have to trade him when they did. They maybe could have got a better immediate return... Pronger on the market when Luongo went before the draft... Make him sit until some teams were getting desperate...

Is Lowe perfect and do I agree with everything that has happened and the way it happened? No. Is he a good GM? Yes. Am I happy he will not be looking for a new job or retiring? Yes. Am I happy to wait and see if he can make the team better in the next 4 years? Yes.

Any other questions?

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
He has made some wicked trades in the Oilers favour over the past number of years. He's drafted well. He had the balls to use the RFA system to improve the club. He's made good trades and signings at opportune times for the organisation.

Yes, he has not been perfect.

The return for Pronger leaving, while it is too early to tell how much we got for him, seems a year later to be too little. He got dazzled by Lupul, but on the other hand he turned that negative into a large positive (Pitkanen). Worst case, he delayed doomsday for about 30% of the return on Pronger. Best case, he turned that part of Pronger into a player who could become a top 5 or 10 defenceman in the league. Not too shabby, on top of another good defenceman and 3 decent draft picks.

Sure. Pitkanen can be a top 5 or 10 defenceman in the league, Lupul could be a leading goalscorer, Hemsky is the next Joe Thornton, and Penner will be a top forward in the league as well.

I don't know why you're so high on Pitkanen. He's not overly impressive -- a poor man's Souray.

Now Smyth... I prefer Penner at $4.25 to Smyth at $5+ (he got 6.25).

Whoa. What?

I can see why you don't mind Lowe if you agree with such nonsense.

Any other questions?

Yes. Where can I find that koolaid?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

Sure. Pitkanen can be a top 5 or 10 defenceman in the league, Lupul could be a leading goalscorer, Hemsky is the next Joe Thornton, and Penner will be a top forward in the league as well.

I don't know why you're so high on Pitkanen. He's not overly impressive -- a poor man's Souray.

He won't be a poor man's anything if he bounces back from last year. He'll cost very dear.

Whoa. What?

I can see why you don't mind Lowe if you agree with such nonsense.

I didn't and don't think the odds of Smyth lasting the 5 years are very good.

In this case I agree with you that youth is the better bet, and a $2 million savings in the process.

Yes. Where can I find that koolaid?

Most likely in the juice and pop aisle of your local grocery store.

[Asher]

Here's another blog's take on the Lowe situation.

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=2807

One of the commenters in the previous post pointed out John MacKinnon’s story (you’re welcome for the link John) on Kevin Lowe’s four year extension (as a politically oblivious Jason Portuondo put it on Sportsnet “Lowe has a better shot at four more years than George W. Bush). There are a couple of good quotes that warrant pulling out of the story and I’ve yet to comment on the renewal, so I thought I’d dip into it. First from Cal Nichols:

“It’s a greasy pole these days,” Nichols said about the New NHL. “As fast as you go up, you can come down. It was just a combination of events that led to it– players leaving, injuries piling up — and so we’re not in any way saying that was on Kevin’s shoulders. It was just one of those things that happens.

I agree with some of this. It’s obvious that Lowe was placed into a tough situation by the various events of the past 15 months - Pronger deciding he wanted out and the Smyth situation being the most obvious. The difficulty that I have with pointing to it in Lowe’s defence is that while Lowe doesn’t control the occurrence of those situations, he does control the Oilers response. He should be evaluated on how the Oilers responded.

The problem I see here is that I don’t know how you give his response to either situation a passing grade. The Pronger deal is an acknowledged fiasco at this point - is anyone else breathlessly checking the boxscores to see how Laco made out the night before in Springfield? The Smyth thing turned into a fiasco and it was obvious from about October that it was heading in that direction. I agree with Nichols insofar as a lot of these situations weren’t necessarily of Lowe’s creation but I don’t think you can just say “Well, regardless of how he responded, he didn’t create the situation.”

The problem with discounting the results because the situation was unexpected or not of Lowe’s creation is that these situations will arise again - they’re unknown unknowns, to use Don Rumsfeld’s language. Something unexpected is going to happen to the Oilers. The question that I’d have for Cal Nichols is whether, based on Lowe’s handling of unexpected things in the past, he has faith in Lowe’s ability to handle these unknown unknowns. His comments in the Journal’s special post-season investigative series (I think it was called “It’s all Lauren’s Fault”) suggest that he would have dealt with the Pronger situation differently. I can’t think of anything that’s occurred between the end of the 2006-07 season and now that would have changed his mind. So it’s a big of a puzzling vote of confidence in that regard.
The charming Pat LaForge chimed in as well:

“I don’t give a feral street rodent’s buttocks about Anaheim and what they’ve got to say,” Oilers president Patrick LaForge said, using slightly cruder language. “What I care about is that we had a plan and this (contract extension) is part of the plan.

“We think this is part of our road to the next Stanley Cup. Kevin’s a terrific leader, prepared to do what he needs to do. But he has a PLAN, you know. I’ve talked to a lot of Kevin’s peers, and they don’t have a plan. They read and react.”

There’s not a lot that needs to be said about this. Lowetide’s excellent post from the other day highlights some of the absurdity inherent in this comment - it’s tough to reconcile the image of a man who, after getting Grebeshkov, Tarnstrom, Pitkanen and Souray inked, thinks “Holy mackerel, we’ve got a lot of guys here” with the idea that this is a guy who’s operating with a plan. There are indications that the Smyth trade was not made pursuant to a plan either - see Vic Ferrari’s post with this quote from Ted Nolan:

We put the same offer up to Edmonton that we had put up to other teams and they went for it. Give [Islanders GM] Garth Snow credit — he just stuck with it. When Garth called me at 3 o’clock and told me we got the deal done, I couldn’t believe he pulled that deal off.

Similarly, with the Pronger thing, the Oilers were seemingly stunned when he renewed his demand to be traded as soon as the Oilers were knocked out of the playoffs. For reasons I still don’t understand, they felt compelled to move him nearly immediately following the end of the season.
The frantic maneouvering in the past off-season, with money desperately thrown at 35 year olds and 25 year olds alike doesn’t exactly shout “I am a man with a plan” either - unless that plan has to do with something other than winning the Stanley Cup or it’s a John McClainesque “Kill everyone and save my daughter” type plan. As much as I want to see Kevin Lowe riding a fighter jet without a pilot safely to Earth, I just don’t think it’s plausible if part of his plan involves Sheldon Souray playing big minutes or Dustin Penner replacing Ryan Smyth.
For all LaForge’s talk of a plan, the Oilers seem to miss the small details, which is really why I question the existence of a good plan or their ability to implement it. An example I haven’t relied on before involves their RFA offer sheet strategy of this past summer. It’s been noted in the comments on this site before that, following the Vanek offer sheet, the Rangers proceeded to announce that they were taking Henrik Lundqvist to arbitration. I’ve pointed out that part of the reason that Brian Burke’s whining is so ridiculous is that all he had to do to lock up Dustin Penner for a lot less than the Oilers are paying him was offer him arbitration.

The timeline is important here. The news of the Vanek offer broke at about noon EST on July 6, 2007. The deadline for team initiated arbitration was about 5 hours later. I would submit that a team with a plan, a team about to lay waste to the RFA field, doesn’t run the risk that all of the attractive ones will suddenly find themselves going to team initiated arbitration.

The Oilers ran that risk and it worked out, such as it has, with Penner still being available but they got lucky that Burke dropped the ball. This is a small thing, a minor point - but it’s the sort of hole that elite management teams close off, particularly when they can do so at no cost to themselves. Does anyone think Stephen Bartlett, Vanek’s agent, would have had any problem with the Oilers waiting a day to extend that offer sheet? What does it cost him? Nothing. It would have cost the Oilers nothing either but for some reason, they chose to announce their presence as RFA hunters at a time when other teams could safely gather their RFA’s and get them into the barn. These details matter. Taking an NHL team to the level of the elite requires a good deal of luck in the salary cap era but you can still mark the cards to a certain extent. The current group of guys running the team doesn’t seem to get that and that’s why I’m not particularly wild about keeping Lowe and the rest of them around for another four years.

[notyoueither]

Ted Nolan thinks that was a good trade for the Islanders? 3 1st round draft picks for 5 playoff games of Smyth?

I guess there are all sorts of opinions out there.