AHL- Apolyton Hockey League 07/08: Draft II

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
IIRC, Asher backed off due to controversy rather than any vote.

You do not recall correctly.

I backed off due to the comment the other party made about his intent with the trade. That was made patently clear at the time and subsequently, and the vote was already in favour of eliminating it anyway.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
And if the rest of the league believes that trade is not a fair trade it should be allowed to stand?

Lets say that in january NYE is in 9th place in the league with little or no chance of catching up. Asher is in 1st (like that is going to happen ), and Sparrowhawk is in 2nd. NYE offers me Joe Thorton and Marion Gaborik in exchange for Rod Brind A'mour and Ales Hemsky. NYE and I believe it is a fair trade (and NYE is excited to just get Hemsky), how do you feel about the trade Asher? Any complaints from you?

* Sparrowhawk

The biggest problem with this scenario is, just like last year, I'll be so far ahead of everyone else that you'll all be fighting for second.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

You do not recall correctly.

I backed off due to the comment the other party made about his intent with the trade. That was made patently clear at the time and subsequently, and the vote was already in favour of eliminating it anyway.

I was referring to the Huet flap.

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by Kontiki
The biggest problem with this scenario is, just like last year, I'll be so far ahead of everyone else that you'll all be fighting for second.

Now I remember who the team was that clearly won the regular season only to fall apart in the playoffs. Thanks for the reminder!

I'd gloat more, but as I am the kissing his sister team (2nd in the regular season, 2nd in the playoffs) I can't gloat too much

/me

and with Hot Mustard gone this year I will unofficially claim my team as the highest ranked returning team this year

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I was referring to the Huet flap.

So was I.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by snoopy369
BTW, lost in this is the lack of Flubber... hurry up and take the RW that I want

JUst got back from family obligations. I'll be just a couple of minutes

On trades

I would only veto in cases where it is CLEAR to me one of the participants is not trying to better their team. NOte that to me it has to be very clear that is the case and I would never want a trade vetoed simply because other people judeged it differently.

The example NYE gave was fair ball-- no reason to veto. If I am quick enough to pick up a goalie, and try to trade, I am trying to better my team. The other guy has a goalie problem and unless you have some other facts otherwise, I would think they are trying to do what is best for their team.

I will never vote to veto unless it is clear-- very clear that someone is throwing in the towel. I think it ruins the leagie if someone were to basically intentionally advantage another competitor and I would vote to prevent that.

AS for mechanics, 7 votes to veto sounds reasonable with discussion on here if ANYONE wants to raise a veto possibility

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Ninot
A predatory trade SHOULD be allowed though. If you can con a guy, good for you.

It's when you're trading with a guy who is out of the playoffs, has no hopes, and stealing all his talent at a bargain. That collusion should not happen.

I am in accord with this view

[Imran Siddiqui]

I was wondering if any PM'ed Flubber... otherwise, it'd take forever for someone to have waded through all this mess .

[Flubber]

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1.1 Asher: Sidney Crosby - C (PIT)
1.2 Sparrowhawk: Roberto Luongo - G (VAN)
1.3 mrboo123: Martin Brodeur - G (NJ)
1.4 notyoueither: Joe Thornton - C (SJ)
1.5 Imran Siddiqui: Miikka Kiprusoff - G (CAL)
1.6 Kontiki: Dany Heatley - RW (OTT)
1.7 snoopy369: Marian Hossa - RW (ATL)
1.8 Jonny: Jaromir Jagr - RW (NYR)
1.9 Flubber: Vincent Lecavalier - C (TB)
1.10 Ninot: Alexander Ovechkin - LW (WAS)
1.11 Guynemer: Jarome Iginla - RW (CAL)
1.12 Tingkai: Joe Sakic - C (COL)

2.1 Tingkai: Niklas Backstrom - G (MIN)
2.2 Guynemer: Olli Jokinen - C (FLA)
2.3 Ninot: Jean-Sebastien Giguere - G (ANA)
2.4 Flubber:Evgeni Nabokov - G (SJ )
2.5 Jonny: Marty Turco - G (DAL)
2.6 snoopy369: Dominic Hasek - G (DET)
2.7 Kontiki: Henrik Lundqvist - G (NYR)
2.8 Imran Siddiqui: Evgeni Malkin - LW (PIT)
2.9 notyoueither: Marian Gaborik- RW (MIN)
2.10 mrboo123: Jason Spezza - C (OTT)
2.11 Sparrowhawk: Pavel Datsyuk - C (DET)
2.12 Asher: Marc-Andre Fleury - G (PIT)

3.1 Asher: Martin St. Louis - RW (TB)
3.2 Sparrowhawk: Jonathan Cheechoo - RW (SJ)
3.3 mrboo123: Simon Gagne - LW (PHI)
3.4 notyoueither: Ilya Kovalchuk - LW (ATL)
3.5 Imran Siddiqui: Daniel Alfredsson - RW (OTT)
3.6 Kontiki: Henrik Zetterberg - LW (DET)
3.7 snoopy369: Nikolas Lidstrom - D (DET)
3.8 Jonny: Daniel Sedin - LW (VAN)
3.9 Flubber: Ray Emery - G (OTT)
3.10 Ninot: Ryan Miller - G (BUF)
3.11 Guynemer: Thomas Vanek - LW (BUF)
3.12 Tingkai: Marc Savard - C (BOS)

4.1 Tingkai: Milan Michalek - RW (SJ)
4.2 Guynemer: Rick DiPietro - G (NYI)
4.3 Ninot: Justin Williams - RW (CAR)
4.4 Flubber: Daniel Briere- C (PHI)
4.5 Jonny: Patrick Marleau - C (SJ)
4.6 snoopy369: Tomas Vokoun - G (FLA)
4.7 Kontiki: Eric Staal - C (CAR)
4.8 Imran Siddiqui: Kari Lehtonen - G (ATL)
4.9 notyoueither: Chris Pronger- D (ANH)
4.10 mrboo123: Henrik Sedin - C (VAN)
4.11 Sparrowhawk: Milan Hejduk - RW (COL)
4.12 Asher: Chris Mason - G (NSH)

5.1 Asher: Alexander Semin - LW (WAS)
5.2 Sparrowhawk: Kristian Huselius - LW (CGY)
5.3 mrboo123: Ryan Smyth - LW (COL)
5.4 notyoueither: Maxim Afinogenov - RW (BUF)
5.5 Imran Siddiqui: Andy McDonald - C (ANH)
5.6 Kontiki: Martin Biron - G (PHI)
5.7 snoopy369: Ryan Whitney - D (PIT)
5.8 Jonny: Dion Phaneuf - D (CAL)
5.9 Flubber: Alex Tanguay - LW (CAL)
5.10 Ninot: Michael Cammaleri - C (LA)
5.11 Guynemer: Sergei Gonchar - D (PIT)
5.12 Tingkai: Tomas Kaberle - D (TOR)

6.1 Tingkai: Dan Boyle - D (TB)
6.2 Guynemer: Slava Kozlov - LW (ATL)
6.3 Ninot: Michael Nylander - C (WAS)
6.4 Flubber: Andrew Brunette -LW (Col)
6.5 Jonny: Keith Tkachuk - LW (STL)
6.6 snoopy369: Mats Sundin - C (TOR)
6.7 Kontiki: Lubomir Visnovsky - D (LA)
6.8 Imran Siddiqui: Pavol Demitra - RW (MIN)
6.9 notyoueither: Brian Rolston - RW (MIN)
6.10 mrboo123: Kimmo Timonen - D (PHI)
6.11 Sparrowhawk: Alexander Frolov - LW (LA)
6.12 Asher: Bryan McCabe - D (TOR)

7.1 Asher: Paul Stastny - C (COL)
7.2 Sparrowhawk: Rod Brind'Amour - C (CAR)
7.3 mrboo123: Brian Campbell - D (BUF)
7.4 notyoueither: Brian Rafalski - D (DET)
7.5 Imran Siddiqui: Philippe Boucher - D (DAL)
7.6 Kontiki: Brad Richards -C (TB)
7.7 snoopy369: Zach Parise - LW (NJ)
7.8 Jonny: Jay Bouwmeester - D (FLA)
7.9 Flubber: Sergei Zubov - D (DAL)
7.10 Ninot: John-Michael Liles - D (COL)
7.11 Guynemer: Mathieu Schneider - D (ANH)
7.12 Tingkai: Patrick Elias - C (NJ)

8.1 Tingkai: Vesa Toskala - G (TOR)
8.2 Guynemer: Manny Legace - G (STL)
8.3 Ninot: Sheldon Souray - D (EDM)
8.4 Flubber: Jason Pominville - RW (BUF)
8.5 Jonny: Manny Fernandez - G (BOS)
8.6 snoopy369: Chris Kunitz - LW (ANA)
8.7 Kontiki: Brian Gionta - RW (NJ)
8.8 Imran Siddiqui: Paul Kariya - LW (STL)
8.9 notyoueither: Dwayne Roloson - G (EDM)
8.10 mrboo123: Martin Havlat - RW (CHI)
8.11 Sparrowhawk: Cam Ward - G (CAR)
8.12 Asher: Tomas Holmstrom - LW (DET)

9.1 Asher: Mike Knuble - RW (PHI)
9.2 Sparrowhawk: Ryan Getzlaf - C (ANA)
9.3 mrboo123: Corey Perry - RW (ANA)
9.4 notyoueither: Chris Drury - C (NYR)
9.5 Imran Siddiqui: Cristobal Huet - G (MON)
9.6 Kontiki: Brendan Shanahan - LW (NYR)
9.7 snoopy369: Peter Budaj - G (COL)
9.8 Jonny: Derek Roy - C (BUF)
9.9 Flubber: Olaf Kolzig -G (WAS)
9.10 Ninot: Mark Recchi - RW (PIT)
9.11 Guynemer: Bill Guerin - RW (NYI)
9.12 Tingkai: Erik Cole - LW (CAR)

10.1 Tingkai: Markus Naslund - RW (VAN)
10.2 Guynemer: Daymond Langkow - C (CGY)
10.3 Ninot: Rick Nash - LW (CBJ)
10.4 Flubber: Matt Carle - D (SJ)
10.5 Jonny: Alexander Radulov - RW (NSH)
10.6 snoopy369: Scott Gomez - C (NYR)
10.7 Kontiki: Marc-Andre Bergeron - D (NYI)
10.8 Imran Siddiqui: Zdeno Chara - D (BOS)
10.9 notyoueither: Ray Whitney - LW (CAR)
10.10 mrboo123: Brad Boyes - C (STL)
10.11 Sparrowhawk: Martin Erat - LW (NAS)
10.12 Asher: Jason Blake - LW (TOR)

11.1 Asher: Shea Weber - D (NSH)
11.2 Sparrowhawk: Ales Hemsky - RW (EDM)
11.3 mrboo123: Jonathan Toews - C (CHI)
11.4 notyoueither: Saku Koivu - C (MON)
11.5 Imran Siddiqui: Nathan Horton - C (FLA)
11.6 Kontiki: Martin Straka - C (NYR)
11.7 snoopy369: Viktor Kozlov - C (WAS)
11.8 Jonny: Fredrik Norrena - G (CBJ)
11.9 Flubber: Jordan Staal - C (PIT)
11.10 Ninot: Andrei Markov - D (MON)
11.11 Guynemer: Nikolai Khabibulin - G (CHI)
11.12 Tingkai: Patrice Bergeron - C (BOS)

12.1 Tingkai: Wojtek Wolski - LW (COL)
12.2 Guynemer: Wade Redden - D (OTT)
12.3 Ninot: Jonathan Bernier - G (LA)
12.4 Flubber: Kevin Bieksa -D (Van)
12.5 Jonny:
12.6 snoopy369:
12.7 Kontiki:
12.8 Imran Siddiqui:
12.9 notyoueither:
12.10 mrboo123:
12.11 Sparrowhawk:
12.12 Asher:

[Flubber]

Sorry DP

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


I was wondering if any PM'ed Flubber... otherwise, it'd take forever for someone to have waded through all this mess .

No real mess that I can see-- There seems to be a clear majority here that sees undoing trades as an extreme measure to only happen if there is either collusion or someone "giving up".

Nye seems to advocate a somewhat higher standard

Asher seems to be in accord on what the majority thinks the standard should be but worries as to who gets to apply the standard. He proposes that people might veto trades from self-interest even if it is a trade entered into by people trying to improve their respective teams.

A few people have not been heard from.


Does that about sum it all up??

[Asher]

Yes -- I can see why you're a lawyer.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by snoopy369
"Predatory" does not mean one person's getting a better deal. Predatory means that a good player is taking advantage of a player who is not aware he's being badly taken advantage of, to the point that it substantially affects the balance of the league.

Predatory means trading a guy who's near the waiver wire for a star. It means trading Mike Maddux for Josh Beckett. That trade i'd veto, because there's no way that's a fair trade by any standard, and it is a big enough trade that it could unbalance the league.

I think majority vote should rule, so 7 vetoes a trade. Do you oppose democracy, Asher? If you do, then perhaps you should make more of an effort to be friendly to the players in the league, if that's the problem

That was the core of my problem with the Huet trade.

It was 2 years ago. Theodore was the Habs starter and was seen as one of the best in the game. He got hurt.

Huet was a relatively unknown backup.

In 99% of the seasons, Huet would have played until Theodore came back and then... so it looked like a case of one manager trying to take advantage of another.

It turned out differently, because Huet was super-human (2 or 3 shut-outs in 3 or 4 games). The Habs decided to ride him. He continued to play well. Theodore never got the starter role back.

Nobody had any way of knowing all that would happen within 24 hours of Theodore getting hurt, Huet being picked up, and him being offered to the player who had Theodore as a starter.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
That was the core of my problem with the Huet trade.

It was 2 years ago. Theodore was the Habs starter and was seen as one of the best in the game. He got hurt.

Huet was a relatively unknown backup.

I'm sorry, this is nonsense.

Theodore was struggling all season, Huet started getting some starts and was VERY impressive in those starts. Theodore eventually got injured, which gave the Canadiens the excuse to play Huet. Even when Theodore was better, Huet kept playing as he was very good. Huet was known to be very good before the injury, and he proved it afterwards as well. Some people in our league protested because they didn't know who he was (eg, you), others who pay more attention to the game and/or have a better eye for goalies so something very different.

This was far removed from when Theodore was seen was one of the best in the game. Look at the stats for yourself. His sv% in 05-06 was 88.1%. Best in the game? Give me a break. Huet played 36 games in 05-06 with a 92.9% svp and 7 frickin shutouts in those 36 games. It's clear who the #1 was, and it wasn't "best in the game" Theodore.

You're intentionally misrepresenting what happened, and I do not appreciate that. I don't think most of the people here will either, because I'm sure they know how spectacularly crap Theodore was that season.

Huet had already had several shutouts and an insane sv% at the time he was offered. And yes, offering a standout goalie (Huet) to a team with a crap goalie who wasn't getting the starts anymore (Theodore) is just called common sense. I wouldn't offer Huet to somebody with Brodeur/Kiprusoff combination, for christ sakes...

[notyoueither]

I'm reporting why I made a stink about your maneuvre.

I just want to make it clear whether snoopy is for or against trades that appear predatory to him.