AHL- Apolyton Hockey League 07/08: Draft II

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I'm reporting why I made a stink about your maneuvre.

You are actively fudging and misrepresenting what happened to make yourself look like something you were not. You thought Huet was a crap player and Kariya wasn't. You protested the trade. You were way wrong.

This is the perfect example of why other managers should not inferfere with trading, because the managers with little hockey sense can object to deals that are more than fair.

[notyoueither]

I thought Huet was a backup who would be a backup again when Theodore came back.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I thought Huet was a backup who would be a backup again when Theodore came back.

Yes, I get that. You thought wrong, clearly. Why should your incorrect intuition matter? You weren't involved, you had no right to protest and make the huge stink out of it you did. You not only vetoed the trade, you made some serious accusations about me taking advantage of people, breaking yahoo's rules ( ) etc.

I do not want this repeated, which is why I don't want you anywhere near the veto button.

(And just why would you think Huet would continue to be the backup??? Theodore had an 88.1% svp! 88 percent! Jesus.)

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by Asher

The majority of people don't like me and don't like me to do well. The trades I've done were provably non-predatory afterwards, in any case. Certain people here just don't like losing to me, and they use all the tools in their disposal to prevent it. Whether it's constantly rotating players to maximize schedules or vetoing and starting PR campaigns against my trades, it's all been done and I'm wary to give them the tools to do it.

Sig worthy.

[notyoueither]

I was not the only person who had a problem with it.

I was very vocal though.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I was not the only person who had a problem with it.

I was very vocal though.

Your slander, misrepresentation, and other PR campaign nonsense did bring other people on to your side. But I think it's clear now that most people don't agree that trade should have been vetoed as being "unfair".

It was fair. You made a huge stink out of it and vetoed it because you lacked foresight, and why should we let that happen again?

I hope people can see now how player-driven vetoes can be a bad thing.

May I remind people that at the time notyoueither was "vocal" about this trade, he was in 1st and I was gaining on him quickly in 2nd...I was already strong in goaltending (with Kipper and such), but my weakpoint was in scoring so I was trying to trade away a 3rd keeper (Huet) for a scorer (Kariya).

[notyoueither]

I didn't veto anything, but yes I was against what I saw as an abusive maneuvre.

And I'm not going to refight the rest of it, despite your best efforts to get it going again. I'm trying to find out what snoopy wants to do about predatory player management and trades.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I didn't veto anything, but yes I was against what I saw as an abusive maneuvre.

And I'm not going to refight the rest of it, despite your best efforts to get it going again.

See? You're doing it again. Trying to paint me as the bad guy.

You're the one that brought this whole "scenario" up again. Don't blame me for correcting your intentional misinformation.

I think it should be clear to everyone from our little rehashing of the argument here that allowing competitors to veto trades is a very bad thing indeed...what you saw as a "predatory trade"/"abusive maneuver" was nothing of the sort.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

Your slander, misrepresentation, and other PR campaign nonsense...

[snoopy369]

If NYE saw Huet as a poor goalie with no chance of playing more than a handful of games, being traded for a superstar, then sure, it seems abusive.

If most of the people in the league saw it as that one-sided, Asher, then perhaps it appeared that way... you have a problem with not admitting other people might know what they're talking about. Sure, you were right in this case. But if 7 managers see it the other way, then maybe it turned out you just got lucky.

It sounds to me like this was a case of a lot of people seeing it differently from you. Although we might well have some people here with less hockey knowledge than you, Asher, I don't think it's that many people. I'd also say that trading an unproven rookie for a superstar is usually not a good trade... if the Habs were going to win a bunch of games no matter how Huet played, then perhaps it's okay because it gives you wins. It just depends...

[Sparrowhawk]

as interesting as this discussion was 100 posts ago, has anyone PM'd Jonny to keep the actual draft going forward yet?

/me

[Jonny]

1.1 Asher: Sidney Crosby - C (PIT)
1.2 Sparrowhawk: Roberto Luongo - G (VAN)
1.3 mrboo123: Martin Brodeur - G (NJ)
1.4 notyoueither: Joe Thornton - C (SJ)
1.5 Imran Siddiqui: Miikka Kiprusoff - G (CAL)
1.6 Kontiki: Dany Heatley - RW (OTT)
1.7 snoopy369: Marian Hossa - RW (ATL)
1.8 Jonny: Jaromir Jagr - RW (NYR)
1.9 Flubber: Vincent Lecavalier - C (TB)
1.10 Ninot: Alexander Ovechkin - LW (WAS)
1.11 Guynemer: Jarome Iginla - RW (CAL)
1.12 Tingkai: Joe Sakic - C (COL)

2.1 Tingkai: Niklas Backstrom - G (MIN)
2.2 Guynemer: Olli Jokinen - C (FLA)
2.3 Ninot: Jean-Sebastien Giguere - G (ANA)
2.4 Flubber:Evgeni Nabokov - G (SJ )
2.5 Jonny: Marty Turco - G (DAL)
2.6 snoopy369: Dominic Hasek - G (DET)
2.7 Kontiki: Henrik Lundqvist - G (NYR)
2.8 Imran Siddiqui: Evgeni Malkin - LW (PIT)
2.9 notyoueither: Marian Gaborik- RW (MIN)
2.10 mrboo123: Jason Spezza - C (OTT)
2.11 Sparrowhawk: Pavel Datsyuk - C (DET)
2.12 Asher: Marc-Andre Fleury - G (PIT)

3.1 Asher: Martin St. Louis - RW (TB)
3.2 Sparrowhawk: Jonathan Cheechoo - RW (SJ)
3.3 mrboo123: Simon Gagne - LW (PHI)
3.4 notyoueither: Ilya Kovalchuk - LW (ATL)
3.5 Imran Siddiqui: Daniel Alfredsson - RW (OTT)
3.6 Kontiki: Henrik Zetterberg - LW (DET)
3.7 snoopy369: Nikolas Lidstrom - D (DET)
3.8 Jonny: Daniel Sedin - LW (VAN)
3.9 Flubber: Ray Emery - G (OTT)
3.10 Ninot: Ryan Miller - G (BUF)
3.11 Guynemer: Thomas Vanek - LW (BUF)
3.12 Tingkai: Marc Savard - C (BOS)

4.1 Tingkai: Milan Michalek - RW (SJ)
4.2 Guynemer: Rick DiPietro - G (NYI)
4.3 Ninot: Justin Williams - RW (CAR)
4.4 Flubber: Daniel Briere- C (PHI)
4.5 Jonny: Patrick Marleau - C (SJ)
4.6 snoopy369: Tomas Vokoun - G (FLA)
4.7 Kontiki: Eric Staal - C (CAR)
4.8 Imran Siddiqui: Kari Lehtonen - G (ATL)
4.9 notyoueither: Chris Pronger- D (ANH)
4.10 mrboo123: Henrik Sedin - C (VAN)
4.11 Sparrowhawk: Milan Hejduk - RW (COL)
4.12 Asher: Chris Mason - G (NSH)

5.1 Asher: Alexander Semin - LW (WAS)
5.2 Sparrowhawk: Kristian Huselius - LW (CGY)
5.3 mrboo123: Ryan Smyth - LW (COL)
5.4 notyoueither: Maxim Afinogenov - RW (BUF)
5.5 Imran Siddiqui: Andy McDonald - C (ANH)
5.6 Kontiki: Martin Biron - G (PHI)
5.7 snoopy369: Ryan Whitney - D (PIT)
5.8 Jonny: Dion Phaneuf - D (CAL)
5.9 Flubber: Alex Tanguay - LW (CAL)
5.10 Ninot: Michael Cammaleri - C (LA)
5.11 Guynemer: Sergei Gonchar - D (PIT)
5.12 Tingkai: Tomas Kaberle - D (TOR)

6.1 Tingkai: Dan Boyle - D (TB)
6.2 Guynemer: Slava Kozlov - LW (ATL)
6.3 Ninot: Michael Nylander - C (WAS)
6.4 Flubber: Andrew Brunette -LW (Col)
6.5 Jonny: Keith Tkachuk - LW (STL)
6.6 snoopy369: Mats Sundin - C (TOR)
6.7 Kontiki: Lubomir Visnovsky - D (LA)
6.8 Imran Siddiqui: Pavol Demitra - RW (MIN)
6.9 notyoueither: Brian Rolston - RW (MIN)
6.10 mrboo123: Kimmo Timonen - D (PHI)
6.11 Sparrowhawk: Alexander Frolov - LW (LA)
6.12 Asher: Bryan McCabe - D (TOR)

7.1 Asher: Paul Stastny - C (COL)
7.2 Sparrowhawk: Rod Brind'Amour - C (CAR)
7.3 mrboo123: Brian Campbell - D (BUF)
7.4 notyoueither: Brian Rafalski - D (DET)
7.5 Imran Siddiqui: Philippe Boucher - D (DAL)
7.6 Kontiki: Brad Richards -C (TB)
7.7 snoopy369: Zach Parise - LW (NJ)
7.8 Jonny: Jay Bouwmeester - D (FLA)
7.9 Flubber: Sergei Zubov - D (DAL)
7.10 Ninot: John-Michael Liles - D (COL)
7.11 Guynemer: Mathieu Schneider - D (ANH)
7.12 Tingkai: Patrick Elias - C (NJ)

8.1 Tingkai: Vesa Toskala - G (TOR)
8.2 Guynemer: Manny Legace - G (STL)
8.3 Ninot: Sheldon Souray - D (EDM)
8.4 Flubber: Jason Pominville - RW (BUF)
8.5 Jonny: Manny Fernandez - G (BOS)
8.6 snoopy369: Chris Kunitz - LW (ANA)
8.7 Kontiki: Brian Gionta - RW (NJ)
8.8 Imran Siddiqui: Paul Kariya - LW (STL)
8.9 notyoueither: Dwayne Roloson - G (EDM)
8.10 mrboo123: Martin Havlat - RW (CHI)
8.11 Sparrowhawk: Cam Ward - G (CAR)
8.12 Asher: Tomas Holmstrom - LW (DET)

9.1 Asher: Mike Knuble - RW (PHI)
9.2 Sparrowhawk: Ryan Getzlaf - C (ANA)
9.3 mrboo123: Corey Perry - RW (ANA)
9.4 notyoueither: Chris Drury - C (NYR)
9.5 Imran Siddiqui: Cristobal Huet - G (MON)
9.6 Kontiki: Brendan Shanahan - LW (NYR)
9.7 snoopy369: Peter Budaj - G (COL)
9.8 Jonny: Derek Roy - C (BUF)
9.9 Flubber: Olaf Kolzig -G (WAS)
9.10 Ninot: Mark Recchi - RW (PIT)
9.11 Guynemer: Bill Guerin - RW (NYI)
9.12 Tingkai: Erik Cole - LW (CAR)

10.1 Tingkai: Markus Naslund - RW (VAN)
10.2 Guynemer: Daymond Langkow - C (CGY)
10.3 Ninot: Rick Nash - LW (CBJ)
10.4 Flubber: Matt Carle - D (SJ)
10.5 Jonny: Alexander Radulov - RW (NSH)
10.6 snoopy369: Scott Gomez - C (NYR)
10.7 Kontiki: Marc-Andre Bergeron - D (NYI)
10.8 Imran Siddiqui: Zdeno Chara - D (BOS)
10.9 notyoueither: Ray Whitney - LW (CAR)
10.10 mrboo123: Brad Boyes - C (STL)
10.11 Sparrowhawk: Martin Erat - LW (NAS)
10.12 Asher: Jason Blake - LW (TOR)

11.1 Asher: Shea Weber - D (NSH)
11.2 Sparrowhawk: Ales Hemsky - RW (EDM)
11.3 mrboo123: Jonathan Toews - C (CHI)
11.4 notyoueither: Saku Koivu - C (MON)
11.5 Imran Siddiqui: Nathan Horton - C (FLA)
11.6 Kontiki: Martin Straka - C (NYR)
11.7 snoopy369: Viktor Kozlov - C (WAS)
11.8 Jonny: Fredrik Norrena - G (CBJ)
11.9 Flubber: Jordan Staal - C (PIT)
11.10 Ninot: Andrei Markov - D (MON)
11.11 Guynemer: Nikolai Khabibulin - G (CHI)
11.12 Tingkai: Patrice Bergeron - C (BOS)

12.1 Tingkai: Wojtek Wolski - LW (COL)
12.2 Guynemer: Wade Redden - D (OTT)
12.3 Ninot: Jonathan Bernier - G (LA)
12.4 Flubber: Kevin Bieksa -D (Van)
12.5 Jonny: David Legwand - C (NSH)
12.6 snoopy369:
12.7 Kontiki:
12.8 Imran Siddiqui:
12.9 notyoueither:
12.10 mrboo123:
12.11 Sparrowhawk:
12.12 Asher:

[Asher]

Originally posted by snoopy369
If NYE saw Huet as a poor goalie with no chance of playing more than a handful of games, being traded for a superstar, then sure, it seems abusive.

If most of the people in the league saw it as that one-sided, Asher, then perhaps it appeared that way... you have a problem with not admitting other people might know what they're talking about. Sure, you were right in this case. But if 7 managers see it the other way, then maybe it turned out you just got lucky.

It sounds to me like this was a case of a lot of people seeing it differently from you. Although we might well have some people here with less hockey knowledge than you, Asher, I don't think it's that many people. I'd also say that trading an unproven rookie for a superstar is usually not a good trade... if the Habs were going to win a bunch of games no matter how Huet played, then perhaps it's okay because it gives you wins. It just depends...

Snoopy: The whole "different people seeing it differently" is ENTIRELY the point. That's precisely why I don't think groupthink should play any role in any kind of trade.

MrBoo was in dead last with major goaltending problems, but not with scoring problems. I was with solid goaltending but lacking scoring. The trade just made sense, and franky when you're in last place you're in a position to gamble with a hot unproven goaltender (that turned out to have paid off handsomely).

Just because other players are more conservative is no reason to veto that trade. Even if the majority of them are! It's up to the two parties involved if they wish to make that risk, and that's ALL. No meddling from Gary Bettman or other team GMs. Even in the real NHL, GMs take risks (Raycroft for Rask? Lupul/Smid for Pronger?). It's part of the game!

[Sparrowhawk]

Edit: this post is in response to Jonny posting one minute after I asked if anyone had PM'd him yet

Wow, you are quick!



/me

[Flubber]

I don't want to re-open an old issue but since you guys brought it up-- I have a question for NYE

Assessment of the equality of what is passing back and forth in a trade is generally a pretty subjective exercise but

1. Was there anything in the circumstances that led you to believe that the person who traded to acquire Huet was acting in anything other than what THAT PERSON perceived as the best interest of their team

To me this is literally the only question that matters. The fact that some people-- ie even 99% of people would think the trade unequal is irrelevant-- And it even turned out that the person that traded for Huet was right-- He played great BUt if Huet stank up the joint from then on, my analysis would be the same. If the two traders want to trade and they are not INTENTIONALLY weakening one team to strengthen another, that would be ok with me.