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  • #76
    I think it's pretty clear that FIA is out to get McLaren and Ron Dennis. It hasn't been proved that there even was any spying done. All that's been revealed is that de la Rosa and Alonso exchanged e-mail containing the information leaked by Stepney and Coughlan. There is no evidence that this information has been used at McLaren or even that McLaren is the instigator here. Both Stepney and Coughlan were applying for jobs at other teams before this scandal erupted. So it's entirely possible that they were going to use that information as a means to get employed elsewhere...

    And FIA has been extremely erratic in it's decisions before. There is the famous case in 1994 - under Max Mosley's watch at the FIA - when Benetton walked scot-free from the World Council, despite admitting that it cheated by tampering with refuelling equipment. The FIA justified letting Benetton off the hook by saying that the filter had been removed by " a junior member" of the team. As part a cobbled together solution to avoid ruining the World Championship at the time Benetton boss Flavio Briatore agreed to make "substantial management changes" to ensure that there was no repeat of the incident.

    A year later the Toyota rally team tried to use the Benetton defence against running illegal turbo restrictors - but this time the FIA World Council threw out the argument - and banned Toyota from the World Championship for the next 12 months.

    "Toyota said the decision had been made at a certain level of the team and that the management had not known about it," Max Mosley said, "but the team has to take responsibility."

    Roll on to 2003 and Toyota was again in trouble but the FIA did not care to involve itself in an espionage case brought by Ferrari against two former employees Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini who were later found guilty of industrial espionage in an Italian court. Santini was condemned to nine months in prison by the Tribunale di Modena, while Iacconi was given a 16 month sentence. Both prison terms were suspended. The FIA says that it did not get involved because it was not asked to get involved, but this ignores the fact that Toyota had already run into trouble with the federation and ought perhaps to have been punished for a repeat offence, something which the civil court did not take into consideration at all. Toyota has yet to receive any punishment for that.

    And Thorgal... I find it amusing that a Ferrari supporter get on a high horse and accuse others of being fanboys. Ferrari is THE fanboy team in F1. Protected by fanatic supporters, FIA and the whole goddamn italian press... It's even more funny considering Ferrari doesn't care about the sport, only about winning. As seen at Indianapolis in 2005 and now, just to mention two incidents.

    All in all this is a very sad ending to a season that has been the best in many years, possibly going back so far as the great battle between then McLaren drivers Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost in 1989-1990 (even if the Alonso - Hamilton battle isn't nearly as dirty and unsportsmanlike).
    I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

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    • #77
      And Thorgal... I find it amusing that a Ferrari supporter get on a high horse and accuse others of being fanboys.
      Me a Ferrari supporter? You have really missed the shot here. It is one of my least favorite teams. I even prefer McLaren.

      But here is the thing. For any McLaren fan any non unconditional pro-McLaren POV is necesarily a pro-Ferrari point of view and viceversa. Black or white (or red in this case), isnt it? This is precisely the fanboyism i was speaking about.

      BTW about you first paragraph, how do know what has been proved and what not, or what do you know about emails and such if the FIA is not going to give any info about the topic until next week?
      Ich bin der Zorn Gottes. Wer sonst ist mit mir?

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      • #78
        Sorry, Thorgal. I must have confused you with LordShiva...

        Regarding the e-mails, it's already been acknowledged by FIA that this is the case. This is the sole reason this sordid affair was re-opened in the first place...
        I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

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        • #79
          McLaren exposed by spy evidence

          McLaren received a systematic flow of information from a spy within rivals Ferrari for nearly three months this year, the FIA has revealed.


          Drivers Fernando Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa were aware of the information.

          It was the possession of this "highly sensitive" data that led the FIA to fine McLaren £49.2m and deduct their constructors' championship points.

          The information came to McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan from Ferrari chief mechanic Nigel Stepney.

          The data McLaren received over the three-month period concerned the Ferrari car's brakes, weight distribution, aerodynamic balance and tyre inflation.

          In a 16-page document, the FIA said e-mails showed that test driver De la Rosa and reigning world champion Alonso had been aware of the Ferrari data.

          All the information from Ferrari is very reliable
          Pedro de la Rosa in an e-mail to Fernando Alonso on 25 March


          "The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Mike Coughlan.

          "Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Nigel Stepney," the report states.

          In what is being viewed as the most damning section of the report, the FIA has published an e-mail exchange between De la Rosa and Alonso.

          "All the information from Ferrari is very reliable," De la Rosa wrote to Alonso on 25 March in an exchange about the Ferrari's weight distribution.

          "It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now.

          "He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that."

          These are the main points raised in the statement on the FIA website:
          • Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated
          • Information included sensitive technical information and sporting strategy
          • De la Rosa requested and received secret Ferrari data
          • The information was shared with Alonso
          • Intention by McLaren personnel to use data in their own testing


          McLaren has refused to comment on the FIA's revelations, published on the eve of the Belgian Grand Prix in Spa.

          The extent of the information Coughlan received about the Ferrari goes far beyond what was revealed at a first meeting of the FIA's world motorsport council in July.

          At that time, the FIA decided not to punish McLaren because there was no proof the information had been used "in such a way as to interfere with the running of the FIA F1 world championship".

          But the new evidence persuaded the world council to change its verdict at Thursday's meeting.

          De la Rosa revealed plans to test Ferrari's weight distribution in McLaren's simulator, plans that were later abandoned.

          It was revealed that Alonso agreed it was "very important" that McLaren tried out the gas Ferrari were using to inflate their car's tyres.

          It also emerged that De la Rosa had asked Coughlan for specific details of Ferrari's braking system, and that the designer revealed to the test driver "we are looking at something similar".

          The document appears to explode the view that this was only a case of two rogue employees using the information to find better jobs at other teams, and that the confidential information had not been circulated within McLaren, as the team contended at the first world council meeting.


          The world council said it had decided to inflict such a heavy punishment on McLaren because "there was an intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing".

          It added: "The evidence leads the WMSC to conclude that some degree of sporting advantage was obtained, though it may forever be impossible to quantify that advantage in concrete terms."

          Alonso and team-mate Lewis Hamilton were not punished in the drivers' championship because "primary responsibility lies with McLaren, and also because McLaren's drivers were offered individual sanction" for telling the world council what they knew.




          McLaren
          THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
          AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
          AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
          DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

          Comment


          • #80
            No one disputes that McLaren was in posession of secret Ferrari data. The question is if they used this and thereby benefited from it. That has yet to be proved. The WMSC based their verdict on circumstancial evidence such as "we think they were going to use it"

            WMSC
            I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

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            • #81
              You think it's OK that they sought competitor information and clearly intended to use it?
              THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
              AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
              AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
              DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

              Comment


              • #82
                Who says McLaren sought the information? Coughlan and Stepney are friends, but there's no evidence that Coughlan delibrately sought this infomation from Stepney on behalf of McLaren. Why Stepney gave Coughlan the information hasn't been revealed AFAIK.
                I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

                Comment


                • #83
                  They knew they were getting this information from someone in Ferrari (obviously, unauthorised), and didn't say anything about it

                  It also emerged that De la Rosa had asked Coughlan for specific details of Ferrari's braking system, and that the designer revealed to the test driver "we are looking at something similar"
                  THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
                  AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
                  AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
                  DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Yeah, well... De la Rosa has clearly overstepped the line here, and if I were Ron Dennis I'd kick his sorry ass out of F1.

                    But the bottom line in this case is: did McLaren deliberately seek this information from Ferrari (ie spying on a fellow team) and did they use any of it to their benefit? Since there's no evidence of either the punishment is absurdly harsh. I'm not saying they should walk away unpunished from this, but the punishment is in no way corresponding to the crime...
                    I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I highly doubt that De la Rosa was acting on his own accord as a "rogue test driver."
                      THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
                      AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
                      AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
                      DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Well, we may never know...
                        I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Can Raikkonen pull it off?
                          THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
                          AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
                          AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
                          DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            It's possible. He's looking rock solid at the moment. As long as his Ferrari holds out and nothing else goes wrong he might snatch the Championship from Hamilton...

                            But I wouldn't count Alonso out just yet. The man has a eerie ability to kick it up a notch when it's needed. I'd really want this to be a fight to the end, neck and neck across the finish line at Interlagos!
                            I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Colonâ„¢
                              Cort Haus when Milosevic chases one million Kosovars out of Kosovo: treated unfairly!!
                              You really are a tedious and repetively off-topic mofo. You are also astoundingly ****ing ignorant of the facts.

                              You lying ****.
                              Last edited by Cort Haus; September 17, 2007, 14:08.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                FWIW, I'm not a fan of McLaren or any particular team. I am certainly not a fan of Max Moseley, though I do have a lot of respect for Ron Dennis, who has done much more for the sport than the power-crazed lawyer.

                                If McLaren are guilty, why are their drivers allowed to race? Is it only the British press that are reporting that Alonso said to Dennis "Make me No 1 or I will disclose emails that indicated that I knew something"?

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