Unless I'm being blind, some ***** is deleting my threads

[MOBIUS]

That's cute from someone who believes that Ukraine should have surrendered to Russia.

Wrong.

I believe Ukraine should never have given Putin the excuse to attack it, by dropping their stated wish of joining NATO.

Neutrality is NOT surrendering. Neutrality is not taking sides. Neutrality is maintaining your independence, both from Russia - and the US.

Ukraine has thrown its independence away. Firstly by losing more of its territory AND now by being in hock to the US and its vassals, because of the billions it has borrowed from them - that it WILL have to pay back...

I do however think that, given Ukraine is at war, that it needs to sue for a negotiated peace while it still can...

โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Ukraine needs to avoid the situation where it is forced to surrender unconditionally!

[MOBIUS]

That's cute from someone who believes that Ukraine should have surrendered to Russia.

Wrong.

I believe Ukraine should never have given Putin the excuse to attack it, by dropping their stated wish of joining NATO.

Neutrality is NOT surrendering. Neutrality is not taking sides. Neutrality is maintaining your independence, both from Russia - and the US.

Ukraine has thrown its independence away. Firstly by losing more of its territory AND now by being in hock to the US and its vassals, because of the billions it has borrowed from them - that it WILL have to pay back...

I do however think that, given Ukraine is at war, that it needs to sue for a negotiated peace while it still can...

โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Ukraine needs to avoid the situation where it is forced to surrender unconditionally!โ€‹

[MOBIUS]

Database error.

I swear someone is trying their best to prevent me from posting! ๐Ÿ˜…

[The Mad Monk]

I blame Mossad.

[N35t0r]

Wrong.

I believe Ukraine should never have given Putin the excuse to attack it, by dropping their stated wish of joining NATO.

Neutrality is NOT surrendering. Neutrality is not taking sides. Neutrality is maintaining your independence, both from Russia - and the US.

Ukraine has thrown its independence away. Firstly by losing more of its territory AND now by being in hock to the US and its vassals, because of the billions it has borrowed from them - that it WILL have to pay back...

I do however think that, given Ukraine is at war, that it needs to sue for a negotiated peace while it still can...

โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Ukraine needs to avoid the situation where it is forced to surrender unconditionally!

So you believe that Ukraine should have surrendered to Russia.
Electing only presidents and prime ministers approved by Putin is hardly being neutral.

[Geronimo]

FFS...

No.

I'm saying that a nation known to commit war crimes in past is going to commit them in the future...

SO DON'T ****ING GIVE THEM A ****ING EXCUSE TO ****ING COMMIT THEM!!!!!!!!!

ESPECIALLY WHEN THE THING TO AVOID GETTING YOUR COUNTRY BLOWN TO BITS IS A BIT OF SEMANTICS THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ACHIEVE (MEMBERSHIP OF NATO) WHILE THE TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF YOUR COUNTRY IS COMPROMISED!!!

๐Ÿ™„

you seriously believe that would have deterred Putin?? *maybe* if Ukraine had officially surrendered all claim to the the Crimea *and* swore off of NATO in a binding treaty *and* withdrawn from the Donbas with a binding treaty forbidding they deploy any armed forces to any part of the Donbas *maybe* then Putin would have not invaded.

Ukraine believed that Russia wouldn't actually invade no matter what. Almost everyone was assuring them that their experts assured them that Putin wouldn't invade and most importantly Putin himself was assuring everyone that Russia had no intention to invade. Why would any sane state in such a situation cave to so many demands knowing that the Donbas intervention and the Crimean occupation already proved that Russia didn't keep its promises anyway?

Putin has given tons of long tirades about why Russia invaded Ukraine. Show me one where he mostly discusses NATO membership for Ukraine not being ruled out as the primary casus belli and I'll show you one targeted to a special audience (probably people like you) that he's trying to manipulate.

The PRC, India and all of Russia's remaining trade partners would not have cared about Ukraine promising to never join NATO, they still would have refused to sanction Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine.

Putin was acutely interested in eventually securing recognition of Crimea as part of Russia. He knew perfectly well that Ukraine would never be a part of NATO while Putin held Crimea. He would never have invaded or not invaded on the basis of any distant future door to Ukrainian membership in NATO and caving to that demand would never have brought any significant additional trade partners in for sanctions if he did subsequently invade after Ukraine became the only country in the world to be singled out for mandatory non-NATO membership.

Furthermore if that's what Putin really cared about, well that ship sailed when Finland joined NATO. How much worse would Ukraine in NATO really be? If that's what it was all about he would have thrown in the towel and withdrawn by now.

[Bereta_Eder]

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[Geronimo]

It's Ming. He deletes plenty of my threads too. And I think I made some kcick arse arguments. But then I'm very drunk so that might not atually be the case. Or it is, but then I embelished them with some french that went too far

Ming please undelete the threads. if there's content in violation of rules just axe the offending posts.

[BeBMan]

It's Ming. He deletes plenty of my threads too. And I think I made some kcick arse arguments.

Most of which came down to snip snip

[Bereta_Eder]

snip snip

[Ming]

Don't look at me on this one... I have no clue. I blame it on the ancient software. Sometimes it does what it wants to do.
If it was me, he would have received a "few" PM's

[Dauphin]

FFS...

No.

I'm saying that a nation known to commit war crimes in past is going to commit them in the future...

SO DON'T ****ING GIVE THEM A ****ING EXCUSE TO ****ING COMMIT THEM!!!!!!!!!

ESPECIALLY WHEN THE THING TO AVOID GETTING YOUR COUNTRY BLOWN TO BITS IS A BIT OF SEMANTICS THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ACHIEVE (MEMBERSHIP OF NATO) WHILE THE TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF YOUR COUNTRY IS COMPROMISED!!!

๐Ÿ™„

You think they need an excuse?

Overall, this sounds a lot like telling a women not to live free, not to wear clothes that show skin, because the rapist won't be able to stop himself if he sees her.

[-Jrabbit]

Note to everyone but the thread starter and Ming: Awesome job of ignoring the actual topic.

[N35t0r]

Note to everyone but the thread starter and Ming: Awesome job of ignoring the actual topic.

I did reply to the only part of his post that I could address.

[Bereta_Eder]

snip snip