The Israeli and US Genocide Double Act Thread

[N35t0r]

While I think Israel's response has been harsh... What would the USA do if some country kept firing rockets at them?
They have a right to defend themselves.
And no... I'm not a Netanyahu apologist. But I am in favor of a country defending themselves.
And again, you seem to support cowardly terrorists who purposely hide behind civilians. And while you accuse Israel of war crimes, you seem to ignore/defend war crimes by the terrorists.

I will state once again that my wish is that both sides come to some agreeable peace deal that serves EVERYBODY.
But that is tough when one side's total goal is the elimination of the state of Israel. But you keep forgetting to mention that.

The Israeli finance Minister has, before last year's attack, said that Palestinians are not a real people, and gave a speech in front of a map that displayed 'greater Israel', including parts of Jordan, all the Palestinian territories, as well as southern Syria and Lebanon.

So, under your arguments, then Palestinians would be totally justified in defending themselves against the Israeli state?

Unfortunately, the state of Israel hasn't really given any indication that they are interested in peace since the assassination of Rabin in '95.

Constant and ongoing encroachment and land theft in the West Bank, as well as letting extremist Israelis in the settlements get away with terrorizing Palestinians and outright murder.

Funding Hamas to undermine Fatah, and then assassinating the more moderate Hamas leaders, leading to a much more hard-line Hamas.

Keeping Gaza under embargo, only allowing selected items through.

Excessively harsh treatment of Palestinians, including longer sentences for Palestinian kids throwing stones than for Israeli murder of Palestinians. At least when they don't shoot back at them.

Ongoing abuse of Palestinian inmates in Israeli jails.

IDF snipers actively targeting kids.


None of this is behavior befitting a modern, law-abiding state. Hell, we shouldn't even be having this conversation: Israeli actions and behaviors are not supposed to be this hard to distinguish from those used by the terrorists who oppose them. Or do you think The Troubles or the ETA were defeated by inflicting terror back at the Irish and the Basque? The Israeli right wing keeps it's grasp on power by employing heavy handed actions against terrorism that only guarantees the terror will continue, thus generating fear and hatred that further drives people towards their rhetoric (and also helps the hardliners amongst the terrorists, and boosts recruitment and fundraising for them, it's win-win for everybody except actual regular people).

[Ming]

Unfortunately, the Arab world has shown NO interest in Peace since the formation of Israel...
And Hamas's stated purpose is to eliminate the state of Israel.
Does the River to the Sea mean anything to you?

[The Mad Monk]

I'm sorry Ming, but that ignores Israel's relationship with Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, and the UAE, as well as the diplomatic recognition that was going to happen with Saudi Arabia before the October 7 attacks happened. The only bad actors I can see in the "Arab world" at this point are Iran and their proxies -- and yes, I include Syria in that latter group.

[Ming]

I'm sorry... but again, ones sides goal is to eliminate the State of Israel. And what do you expect when you launch a massive terrorist attack like Oct 7th. We know what the USA would have done... exactly what they did in response to 9/11.
Again, I agree their response has been over the top... but when you cowardly hide behind civilians, bad stuff is going to happen.
Israel has the right to defend itself and it's people. Hamas knew what would happen when they launched the attack. They actually WANTED that kind of response.

[N35t0r]

Unfortunately, the Arab world has shown NO interest in Peace since the formation of Israel...
And Hamas's stated purpose is to eliminate the state of Israel.
Does the River to the Sea mean anything to you?

Like TMM mentioned, that is patently not true.

Also, map of Israel from the river to the sea, held by Netanyahu at the UN, I guess that to you the Israeli government is just like Hamas:


Also, I'm not sure what's the point to your comment regarding Hamas. I already acknowledged they're a terrorist organization, and all that Israel is doing is making sure they've got no shortage of funding or recruits, and that they aren't interested in any negotiations.

[N35t0r]

I'm sorry... but again, ones sides goal is to eliminate the State of Israel. And what do you expect when you launch a massive terrorist attack like Oct 7th. We know what the USA would have done... exactly what they did in response to 9/11.
Again, I agree their response has been over the top... but when you cowardly hide behind civilians, bad stuff is going to happen.
Israel has the right to defend itself and it's people. Hamas knew what would happen when they launched the attack. They actually WANTED that kind of response.

Yeah, the world wasn't created on October 7, 2023.

Also, what the US did after 9/11? You mean bomb the **** out of Afghanistan, go in guns blazing with zero plan, and eventually leave the place which didn't take one week to go back to the way it was before?
Or you mean invading Iraq under completely made-up pretenses (to the point that Putin and Russian sympathisers have used it to claim that US rhetoric towards it's invasion of Ukraine is completely hypocritical), killed several hundred thousand people directly and indirectly, and led to the destabilization of the region, including the creation of ISIS and a greater push of Iran towards getting nuclear weapons?
Or you mean setting up centers to illegally torture suspected terrorists, passed laws such as the Patriot act, and otherwise promoted a culture of xenophobia and us-vs-them thinking that has not totally come to bite you in the ass?

Because of you think all of that is good, and are happy that Israel has decided to follow the same route, then I don't really know what to say.

[Ming]

Where did I EVER say it was good. I was just stating a fact on what the US did.
Countries DEFEND themselves when attacked. And while the responses may be as bad as the actual reason for the attack, they are in response to the initial attack. Hamas KNEW how Israel would respond, and DESIRED IT. They wanted to paint Israel as the bad guys. But it seems everybody has forgotten how brutal and cowardly the Oct 7th attack was. A year later, they are still holding some hostages... but everybody seems to have forgotten about them. And they continue to hide behind their own civilians... hoping more of them get killed so they can get some more headlines.

[The Mad Monk]

If the Israelis are sending a message, it's "don't take hostages, we'll consider them expendable, and it will just make us mad."

[N35t0r]

Where did I EVER say it was good. I was just stating a fact on what the US did.
Countries DEFEND themselves when attacked. And while the responses may be as bad as the actual reason for the attack, they are in response to the initial attack. Hamas KNEW how Israel would respond, and DESIRED IT. They wanted to paint Israel as the bad guys. But it seems everybody has forgotten how brutal and cowardly the Oct 7th attack was. A year later, they are still holding some hostages... but everybody seems to have forgotten about them. And they continue to hide behind their own civilians... hoping more of them get killed so they can get some more headlines.

Most of the hostages that Israel got back, they did through negotiation. The IDF killed more hostages than they rescued by force. If it really was about the hostages, there's be more pressure on Netanyahu to negotiate.

Also, your arguments are stupid if they're meant to support Israel:

"Countries DEFEND themselves when attacked. And while the responses may be as bad as the actual reason for the attack, they are in response to the initial attack. The Israeli government KNEW how Hamas would respond, and DESIRED IT. They wanted the world not to forget how evil Hamas is. But it seems everybody has forgotten how brutal and cowardly Israeli settlers are. A year later, they are still expanding the settlements and stealing more Palestinian land... but everybody seems to have forgotten about them. And they continue to foment hate and extremism... hoping more of them get killed so they can step up on annexing territory."

The current status quo is **** for Palestinians, but also for Israelis. No amount of violence short of levels we are supposed to have left behind will solve this issue, yet Israel seems more keen to lower itself to the level of Hamas and Hezbollah than to take any steps at a real solution.

Don't get me wrong, they're totally free to pursue whatever path they want, but I'm going to laugh in the face of whoever defends their actions and calls them the only liberal democracy in the middle east (just like I laugh in the face of those as claiming Hamas and Hezbollah care about Palestinians).

[N35t0r]

If the Israelis are sending a message, it's "don't take hostages, we'll consider them expendable, and it will just make us mad."

It's actual policy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

Of note:

Israeli newspapers including Haaretz, ABC News and the UN's Commission of Inquiry have pointed out that during the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel the IDF ordered the Hannibal Directive to be used. The IDF was ordered to prevent "at all costs" the abduction of Israeli civilians or soldiers, possibly leading to the death of a large number of Israeli hostages.

[giblets]

"What would you expect any country to do after their slaves revolt and kill innocent people" gee I don't know maybe don't have slaves.

[MOBIUS]

Does the River to the Sea mean anything to you?

Yes Ming, it's an old Zionist slogan advocating for a Greater Israel.

You do know that, don't you? 🙄

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/its-time-to-confront-israels-version-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/

The original Palestinian use for the phrase was to call for a single democratic state for Arabs and Jews, as a call for peace and equality.

It is amazing how Israel has painted itself as the victim, when it's always been the perpetrator.

You don't have a ****ing clue, Ming. Just mindlessly parroting the same old Zionist propaganda...

Start with Jabotinsky, work your way through their terrorist murder of British civilians, where most of those people ended up running the country at some point. Or even a mild detour through their deliberate attack and murder of 34 US servicemen in the USS Liberty incident... Ad infinitum...

But yeah, keep thinking that the deliberate murder of tens of thousands of women and children, and the starvation of millions more is... harsh... 🙄

Yep, Ming is indeed merciless after all... 👎

[MOBIUS]

It's actual policy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

Of note:

Yes, plenty of evidence of Israeli security forces deliberately targeting Israeli civilians during their recapture of areas that Hamas had infiltrated, therefore many of the Israeli deaths were likely actually from friendly fire incidents. It's all documented if you decide to look for your own sources.

Western mainstream media parrots the 1300 or so people, neglecting to mention only about half of those were actually civilians, with the rest being IDF and security forces...

Never took Ming for a Zionist shill... 😥

[Geronimo]

"What would you expect any country to do after their slaves revolt and kill innocent people" gee I don't know maybe don't have slaves.

they don't have slaves but they do have populations living in territories they militarily control and for which no other state is deemed to enjoy sovereignty over. Populations for whom Israel recognizes no rights as citizens of any state including Israel and for which Israel apparently accepts no responsibility to guarantee any rights for. I definitely agree that Israel needs to work non stop on a a remedy for the situation. Leaving Gaza and the West Bank as a giant sized Gitmo is totally unacceptable.

[Ming]

Zionist shill
I would love to see a lasting peace that is equatable to all in Middle East.
And I have stated that I think Israel is not blameless in all of this.
But it seems like some people here refuse to place any blame at all on the other side.
BOTH SIDES are the problem... not just Israel.
So if you want to trash Israel... fine by me... but you better also trash the other side as well. They are not blameless.