Ukraine at its best!

[Ming]

Gee... Russia is hitting cities with missile strikes... but I guess they are smart missiles and don't kill civilians...
So you are claiming that Russia hasn't killed civilians? What about raping them?
And as usual, you then try to change the subject instead of addressing the topic. Russian Nazi's have committed war crimes in Ukraine.
But you still think they are the ones in the right.

[Berzerker]

One of these big shot human rights organizations was roundly condemned in the west for accusing Kiev of using civilians as shields. Not only was Azov and company bombing the Donbas they'd launch attacks from population centers and withdraw before the counter attack. That is a war crime. But as you can tell if you've listened to Banderites, they're happy to kill eastern Ukrainians, civilian deaths are desired and the protesters are traitors. Y'all should meet some of these fine people you insist on arming, I've seen them interviewed... seething hatred is what I saw after the Odessa massacre. No wonder people in eastern Ukraine wanted to leave the party, it was crashed by CIA backed Nazis.

[Geronimo]

They were leveling Donbass slowly all these years,since 2014.

In 2022 they just have intensified their fire as a preparation for their invasion.
If you haven't noticed that, several days before the "Russian invasion of 2022" I have posted a thread here, where I have explained, that due to intense Ukranian sheling of Donbass and evaquation of children from there, there will be a war soon, because we would not tolerate this for long!
That was about a week before the "Russian invasion".
I've told you everything back then!

That soon you will start to spread all possible lies about Russia and so on!

I have predicted EVERYTHING before it happened!​​

Dude I have mentioned it many times. Your post was practically on cue. We all knew the invasion was coming when in December Russian sources started saying "OMG" the Ukrainian Nazis have started shelling the Donbas! OMG the humanity! Look here we have video! The video was completely debunked and I went from on the fence about whether Russia would really invade to posting here that there could now be no doubt. WTH should I be impressed that 2 months later you, as if on cue, parrot these discredited sources and "predict" there will be war. Dude we were both scooped by the fricken' US government under the direction of Biden revealing Intel that Russia was preparing false flag ops in the donbass to stage a fake casi belli for the special military operation. Were you paying zero attention until you showed up with your big prediction weeks later??

[Berzerker]

You mean Biden knew Putin would invade and still rejected peace offers?

[Ming]

Please provide ACTUAL PROOF that Biden was the puppet master that didn't want peace.
You keep claiming it like it's a fact. It's not... just opinion and conspiracy theories.

[Berzerker]

He told Zelensky to lie about getting Nato membership and he cancelled repeated negotiations and deals. He was in charge of Ukraine after the 2014 coup during both Minsk I & II and various European leaders have since admitted Minsk was a delaying response to Russia's attack in support of the Donbas when they were nearly over run by Azov. Russia went in and caught the Ukrainians in a vulnerable position and that's why the west started dealing. We have video of Zelensky in 2019 ordering Azov to leave the battlefield and they refused because they were at war with "protesters", not Russians. We armed Nazis to kill Ukrainian protesters because Joe wanted a proxy war on Russia's border.

[Geronimo]

You mean Biden knew Putin would invade and still rejected peace offers?

"rejected peace offers"? From December 2021 to mid February 2022 Russia made specific demands Berz:

1. Ban on Ukraine Entering NATO:
   • Russia demanded that Ukraine be prohibited from joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).
   • This was a significant point of contention, as NATO membership for Ukraine has been a longstanding issue.
2. Limit on Troop Deployment to NATO’s Eastern Flank:
   • Russia sought a limit on the deployment of troops and weapons to NATO’s eastern flank.
   • Essentially, this would return NATO forces to where they were stationed in 1997, before the alliance’s eastward expansion.
3. No Further NATO Expansion:
   • Russia demanded that NATO rule out any further expansion, including the accession of Ukraine into the alliance.
   • It also insisted that NATO not hold military drills without prior agreement from Russia in Ukraine, eastern Europe, the Caucasus, or Central Asia.
4. Pullback of Missile Systems:
   • The draft treaty called for both countries to pull back any short- or medium-range missile systems out of reach.
   • This proposal aimed to replace the previous Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty that the U.S. left in 2018.

This is an ultimatum. Why would Russia be entitled to make any of these demands Berz? If NATO caved into to any of these demands why wouldn't other hostile actors use similar strategies to obtain other concessions? How could NATO possibly serve as an effective deterrent against attacks on its eastern members if it caved into these demands? And finally since Russia already guaranteed respect for Ukraine's borders in exchange for Ukraine giving away all of its nukes and Russia then invaded and annexed Crimea less than 10 years later despite Ukraine having handed over to Russia all of Ukraine's nukes. I can't imagine why anybody could take *any* promises by Russia seriously let alone these new promises to refrain from further breaking the promises they made earlier so long as NATO caved into a bunch of new ultimatums by Russia and respected Russia's unilateral annexation of a huge region of Ukraine in 2014.

Every single time that "neocons" began military operations anywhere it was always preceded by ultimatums. If Putin making Ultimatums and NATO not caving into them absolves Putin from blame for the war that followed how are you able to blame the necons for any of the wars they pushed when they also made ultimatums that were ignored or rejected?
​
When the Nazis under Hitler invaded Poland the Nazi's promised peace to the West after breaking the security guarantee for Czechoslovakia. If we accept your logic that not caving into Russia's demands before the special military operation demands constituted "rejecting peace" then wouldn't Britain and France be "rejecting peace" in 1939? does that mean their refusal to "accept peace" by caving to nazi demands in 1939 would make them at fault at that time for the start of world war 2? You will no doubt attempt to dismiss such inconsistency by labelling it as "analogy" That approach can't work Berz. If history and precedent is rejected as irrelevant "analogy" then no treaty will ever mean anything and your suggestion to placate Putin by appeasing his ultimatums would be meaningless regardless.

[Berzerker]

wow, Russia had the audacity to want Nato, Azov and the neocons kept off their borders after almost a decade long war waged by the west. My God how arrogant. Imagine if Russia toppled the Mexican govt and sent a Nazi army to massacre people in northern Mexico, Americans would be flocking to their defense. So what was Joe's counter-proposal? When two sides negotiate don't they do that...negotiate? Well yes, that's what they do when both sides want peace. Does Victoria Nuland give you any peaceful vibes?

"Why would Russia be entitled to make any of these demands Berz?"

Because the people of the Donbas have the right to not be slaughtered by Nazis and that is what started this war.

[Geronimo]

wow, Russia had the audacity to want Nato, Azov and the neocons kept off their borders after almost a decade long war waged by the west. My God how arrogant. Imagine if Russia toppled the Mexican govt and sent a Nazi army to massacre people in northern Mexico, Americans would be flocking to their defense. So what was Joe's counter-proposal? When two sides negotiate don't they do that...negotiate? Well yes, that's what they do when both sides want peace. Does Victoria Nuland give you any peaceful vibes?

"Why would Russia be entitled to make any of these demands Berz?"

Because the people of the Donbas have the right to not be slaughtered by Nazis and that is what started this war.

zero NATO arrogance, Arrogance requires demands. For once NATO and its members were making no demands. Russia was demanding NATO members change how they behaved within sovereign and perfectly willing NATO members borders and for NATO to help Russia isolate Ukraine from attempting to join NATO. how is that not monumental arrogant imperialism by Russia? If Russia "toppled" the Mexican government the US will complain but have no grounds to invade, especially if there were no Russian boots on the ground. Especially if Russia accomplished the deed by bribing Nazis in Mexico to assassinate people on both sides of protests against the prior, lawfully elected Mexican government in order to frame that Mexican government for the violence against protestors who were protesting for the ouster of that legitimately elected Mexican government through legal action by a majority of Mexican of elected members of the congress of the union. Are you trying to say such a Russian operation would permit the US to invade and annex Mexican provinces? How about if subsequently Mexico had further elections electing new governments that completely replaced those who assumed power after the ouster? Would the US still have grounds to invade in your world? What if the Mexican fascists and quasi-private partially foreign funded paramilitary groups sent north massacre protestors against the new governments were found to have mostly killed not protestors but armed separatists led by a former senior CIA officer from the D.C. area? Do you still think the US would be justified in invading and annexing the separatist states of northern Mexico?

Russia didn't have a dispute to be resolved. Russia wanted to eliminate Ukrainian sovereignty and use force and threat of force to dictate the disposition of the militaries of NATO members within their own borders, dictate who NATO could admit in the future, and dictate official acceptance of Russian sovereignty over Crimea. Under what circumstances do you envision the US being entitled to make similar such ultimatums?

If you want to cite massacre of people in the Donbass as a legitimate casus belli for this war you'll have to explain why far more protestors have been massacred *after* the invasion in less than 3 years than the Nazis massacred in more than 8 years. It looks as if the Nazis weren't very interested in massacring protestors after all, or at least less interested than the Russians.
​

[Berzerker]

If Kiev was waging a righteous war to save the Donbas from little green men why did Zelensky and the Azov commander identify the enemy as protesters?

[Geronimo]

why couldn't they? identifying protesters as "the enemy" would be stupid but unless they also claimed the enemy exclusively consisted of protestors why could the little green men not be "the enemy" as well? where did anyone in Ukraine ever say that the enemy exclusively or even mostly consisted of protestors?

[Berzerker]

Demanding Nato end its war on the Donbas is arrogance? Negotiations are about making demands and hearing counter proposals. Nobody was negotiating in the west because Joe wanted this war.
If Russia toppled the Mexican government and sent a Nazi army to kill people in northern Mexico, do those people in northern Mexico have the right to defend themselves?

So the west backs a right wing massacre in Kiev to force the democratically elected leader to flee and almost a year later Russia steps in to stop a Nazi slaughter in the Donbas and you think the issue is Ukrainian sovereignty? How many protesters has Russia killed? Millions died to end Nazism and it lived on in Ukraine and the hearts and minds of western cold warriors.

[Ming]

And it lived on in Russia as well... as their Nazi Troops helped invade another country.
Again... those wonderful people you claim they were defending put in the firing line, And Russian Nazi's raped the women for fun.
But keep defending those heroic Nazi's.

[Berzerker]

we've been arming Nazis for a decade and you're upset by Russians defending the Donbas from them

[Geronimo]

Demanding Nato end its war on the Donbas is arrogance? Negotiations are about making demands and hearing counter proposals. Nobody was negotiating in the west because Joe wanted this war.
If Russia toppled the Mexican government and sent a Nazi army to kill people in northern Mexico, do those people in northern Mexico have the right to defend themselves?

So the west backs a right wing massacre in Kiev to force the democratically elected leader to flee and almost a year later Russia steps in to stop a Nazi slaughter in the Donbas and you think the issue is Ukrainian sovereignty? How many protesters has Russia killed? Millions died to end Nazism and it lived on in Ukraine and the hearts and minds of western cold warriors.

NATO has no war in the Donbass. zero. Sure literally tons of NATO arms arrived in Ukraine but there were no NATO Igor Girkins running NATO operations in Ukraine. Azov and other Russian hating paramilitary killed dozens of protestors and were confronted about it by zelensky and possibly funded by anybody with access to their crowdfunding. This is not a cause for war. The Gazan terrorists killed literally 100 times more civilians in Israel who weren't even protesting than the ukrainian nazis killed protestors in the Donbass but somehow we don't see you Berz, declaring that this provides Israel justification to militarily intervene in Gaza. I wonder why that is?

[Ming]

He's pro Russia and anti Democrats/Biden. That's why.

[Berzerker]

pro-Donbas, anti-neocon

[Serb]

Gee... and Russian Nazi's invaded, killed and raped Ukrainians, but you blame the victims and defend the war criminals.

Just tell me, how it is like to live in a twisted universe, where there was no Western inspired, sponsored and supported coup of 2014 after wich UKRANIAN forces have invaded Donbass and started a slaughter there for an eight years?

Please, explain to me to a what kind of degree a brainwashed idiot you might be!

[Ming]

You're the one that believes Russia is winning a war, years after their "short" military operation began.
I guess they didn't roll over and play dead like your government told you.