Shanghai

[Bereta_Eder]

What do you think is happening there?

[BeBMan]

Pretty harsh lockdown there from what I read. Not this wimpy "you can go out and buy food or even take a walk whenever you want as long you don't go in hordes" type of thing we had. This will teach covid. Maybe.

But it is rather difficult to centrally distribute everything the inhabitants of such a large city need.

[Berzerker]

screaming towers, killed pets, China is nuts

or maybe not, could be their extreme lockdowns are effective in the long run

but I think covid wont be stopped with such measures, not until we get a vaccine that is effective at suppressing transmission rates and that will probably require a nasal spray vaccine that trains the airways to attack the bug

I read a few weeks ago Hong Kong had a serious outbreak of Omicron, they had successful lockdowns for previous waves/variants and a large segment of the elderly didn't bother getting vaccinated. I was a little surprised, China has a very high vaccination rate and I assumed they were mandating vaccines for both China and Hong Kong.

Anyway, lockdown today and get covid tomorrow... I think populations that got covid are better off than populations relying on lockdowns and vaccines when it comes to the future

[N35t0r]

screaming towers, killed pets, China is nuts

or maybe not, could be their extreme lockdowns are effective in the long run

but I think covid wont be stopped with such measures, not until we get a vaccine that is effective at suppressing transmission rates and that will probably require a nasal spray vaccine that trains the airways to attack the bug

I read a few weeks ago Hong Kong had a serious outbreak of Omicron, they had successful lockdowns for previous waves/variants and a large segment of the elderly didn't bother getting vaccinated. I was a little surprised, China has a very high vaccination rate and I assumed they were mandating vaccines for both China and Hong Kong.

Anyway, lockdown today and get covid tomorrow... I think populations that got covid are better off than populations relying on lockdowns and vaccines when it comes to the future

Populations that got covid and did not get the vaccine are better only if you don't count the dead

[Berzerker]

I'm not counting them, I'm comparing the immune systems of survivors with vaccinated people

[Berzerker]

thats a good reason for vulnerable people to get vaccinated, but many people got covid without access to vaccines so the question becomes: are populations immunized by covid better off than vaccinated populations?

China's lockdowns produce high vaccination rates but low natural immunity rates. Does that make them more vulnerable in the future than, say, African populations where covid spread easily and natural immunity is high?

Ideally we want people to get vaccinated to reduce harm from covid when they get it, but for much of the population we're past that point

[N35t0r]

thats a good reason for vulnerable people to get vaccinated, but many people got covid without access to vaccines so the question becomes: are populations immunized by covid better off than vaccinated populations?

That might have been a question last year (even if a dumb question). Now we know that no, is not better to not be vaccinated.

China's lockdowns produce high vaccination rates but low natural immunity rates. Does that make them more vulnerable in the future than, say, African populations where covid spread easily and natural immunity is high?

Ideally we want people to get vaccinated to reduce harm from covid when they get it, but for much of the population we're past that point

You clearly have no idea how vaccines and the immune system works.

[Berzerker]

educate me


and I'm not asking if the vaccine is better than nothing, but if its better than natural immunity produced by covid

we have a situation with highly vaccinated lockdowned countries we can compare to populations where covid spread like wildfire

its a challenge, can Pfizer beat Mother Nature?

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Not to be nasty about it, Berz, but you're an extremely stubborn contrarian. Educating you sounds like a challenge...

[Berzerker]

start with facts

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

With respect, you already got your own 'facts' from reactionaries. I'm responsible for keeping my own head straight, and you're too big a project.

I think you're an excellent fellow when you're not talking politics -and very likeable- I want you to know that.

[N35t0r]

educate me

It clearly didn't get through last time I tried

and I'm not asking if the vaccine is better than nothing, but if its better than natural immunity produced by covid

Is drinking water using a glass better than naturally slurping the water without using said glass?

we have a situation with highly vaccinated lockdowned countries we can compare to populations where covid spread like wildfire

We have more than two situations. This is called a false dichotomy, and it is a logical fallacy.

its a challenge, can Pfizer beat Mother Nature?

I sure hope so, at one time 'mother nature' killed 1/3 of the population in Europe, and periodically killed/maimed significant portions of the global population.

[Berzerker]

I'm only comparing two situations and very little you say is clear, please finish your glass of water first. When Mother Nature was killing those people she was leaving behind survivors who passed along their genetic code. Can Pfizer beat their immunity, not in the case of covid.

[N35t0r]

You seem to be too thick, so let me spell it out:

A lot of those diseases have been eradicated due to vaccines. In the previous millions of years of humans being 'survivors who passed on their genetic code', ""mother nature"" never cared enough for them to pass enough of that genetic code to prevent future outbreaks. So yeah, if you consider thousands of avoidable dead and maimed every year to be something to look forward to, then definitely your method works best.

[BlackCat]

educate me


and I'm not asking if the vaccine is better than nothing, but if its better than natural immunity produced by covid

There are no difference between the protection that a vaccine give and the protection an infection gives - the only difference is that the infection may kill you or give you serious damages.

we have a situation with highly vaccinated lockdowned countries we can compare to populations where covid spread like wildfire

No, we don't have such a case - there are several highly vaccinated countries where things are more or less back to normal, then we have systems that are highly vaccinated and act with extreme cautioness like the chinese, and then there are those with low vaccine where the infection wreaks havoc.

its a challenge, can Pfizer beat Mother Nature?

Certainly, why do ask such a silly question ?

[pchang]

One should keep in mind that China refuses to use western vaccines and their own vaccines are much less effective.

[Berzerker]

and it was given so long ago I saw an efficacy rate of ~13% recently

[BeBMan]

For some reason Kid didn't report that to us in his China Watch Thread

[PLATO]

Say a reporter reporting from his apartment in Shanghai and he said that there was literally a tape seal on the door. Ouch...

[N35t0r]

This is pretty much what china did during the original covid outbreak, so it's not entirely surprising (I remember news of the army shooting at people who broke the curfew, but it might have been exaggerated).

I do wish them luck, with how virulent Omicron is, it will be very hard to stop it like this. At least this variant also runs through it's cycle much faster.

[Berzerker]

There are no difference between the protection that a vaccine give and the protection an infection gives - the only difference is that the infection may kill you or give you serious damages.

No, we don't have such a case - there are several highly vaccinated countries where things are more or less back to normal, then we have systems that are highly vaccinated and act with extreme cautioness like the chinese, and then there are those with low vaccine where the infection wreaks havoc.

Certainly, why do ask such a silly question ?

They haven't so far... Pfizer lost the battle with Mother Nature, there is a difference between the protection - covid survivors do better than the vaccinated. Large studies from California, NY and Israel all showed natural immunity was better. I was comparing largely unvaccinated places where covid already spread with places that relied on vaccines and lockdowns. Seems logical to me the former is better protected than the latter based on the evidence.