Ukraine-gate

[Berzerker]

Donald Trump broke that law when he sent Rudy Giuliani to Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden. That's a federal crime. You can call it "fighting corruption," except that's a lie. And we all know it's a lie.

A President under threat of impeachment cant legally have his lawyer investigate corrupt ties between his accusers and foreigners?

[Jon Miller]

Working hand in hand with the state department and 'as the president's lawyer'. Definitely.

Even hiring a covert private eye would be questionable.

an aside (because it isn't relevant to answering your question) Was Biden his accuser?

JM

[Berzerker]

How could Ukrainians press charges much less investigate the prosecutor in 6 hours. Thats how long Joe gave them. No, this wasn't about Biden wanting a prosecutor to investigate corruption, that guy was fired because he was a threat to Biden and/or the policy of funding the Ukrainian revolution and the people allied with Obama.

He wasn't sufficiently pliable to our needs, we didn't want Ukrainian prosecutors looking at the money we poured into the country. The most laughable explanation I heard was Biden had the guy fired because he wasn't investigating his son's business. Seriously, thats what some Democrats are claiming.

[Jon Miller]

if you have power, you can't have anything to do with investigations against your opponents.

JM

[Jon Miller]

How could Ukrainians press charges much less investigate the prosecutor in 6 hours. Thats how long Joe gave them. No, this wasn't about Biden wanting a prosecutor to investigate corruption, that guy was fired because he was a threat to Biden and/or the policy of funding the Ukrainian revolution and the people allied with Obama.

He wasn't sufficiently pliable to our needs, we didn't want Ukrainian prosecutors looking at the money we poured into the country. The most laughable explanation I heard was Biden had the guy fired because he wasn't investigating his son's business. Seriously, thats what some Democrats are claiming.

This doesn't fit history. Look at news stories of the time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-hails-sacking-of-ukraine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190

He was fired because EU and US wanted him gone.

JM

[Berzerker]

Working hand in hand with the state department and 'as the president's lawyer'. Definitely.

Even hiring a covert private eye would be questionable

Was Biden his accuser?

JM

Why would your lawyer need to work hand in hand with the people accusing you of a crime? They're the last people I want involved in my defense. Biden's one of his accusers, but more than that, Biden was in charge of our Ukrainian efforts during our election season when US policy poured money into the country and Biden used that money to buy the termination of a prosecutor.

If I was Trump the entire US apparatus in Ukraine was Obama's legacy and suspect at the very least. I wouldn't want Obama's ambassador looking over my lawyer's shoulder while he's building my defense. The President sets policy, not an ambassador. He should have replaced her on day 1 given the fact she's probably compromised as a Biden ally.

[Jon Miller]

There is no need to parrot lies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin

read the history.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Why would your lawyer need to work hand in hand with the people accusing you of a crime? They're the last people I want involved in my defense. Biden's one of his accusers, but more than that, Biden was in charge of our Ukrainian efforts during our election season when US policy poured money into the country and Biden used that money to buy the termination of a prosecutor.

If I was Trump the entire US apparatus in Ukraine was Obama's legacy and suspect at the very least. I wouldn't want Obama's ambassador looking over my lawyer's shoulder while he's building my defense. The President sets policy, not an ambassador. He should have replaced her on day 1 given the fact she's probably compromised as a Biden ally.

Biden wasn't running in 2015/2016 and, at the time, didn't appear likely to run in 2020.

You are sounding as crazy as Kid there. Go find some old newspapers/go on to the way back machine. Get your heads out of the nonsense that is Trump/Fox News/etc.

JM

[Berzerker]

if you have power, you can't have anything to do with investigations against your opponents.

JM

Where is that written? What if your opponent murdered someone? What if your opponent tried to frame you? Obama and Biden were in power and they spied on their opponent based on a dossier of lies, the Democrats had everything to do with investigating their opponents. Besides, Trump's lawyer is not investigating the Bidens as part of a judicial action involving charges or FBI spying, Giuliani is trying to build a defense against impeachment. That means tracking down Democrat malfeasance related to Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election and Biden is ground zero.

[Jon Miller]

Where is that written? What if your opponent murdered someone? What if your opponent tried to frame you?

You have to hand it over to an independent prosecutor and have nothing to do with it.

JM

[Berzerker]

Thats for pressing charges, not building a legal defense against impeachment. If you're being investigated for a crime, you dont hire the prosecutor to investigate them self.

[Jon Miller]

You are continuing to ignore the history of the time relating to Ukraine, the prosecutor and Biden. Please go back and read those news articles before continuing.

The defense of someone in power can't be to make up accusations and prosecutions with no basis in reality.

JM

[Berzerker]

I've heard Biden's defense, "everyone" wanted to fire the guy. But the only people I've heard that from are Biden and people who dont want to piss him off. The EU, IMF, Ukrainian reformers, people with a vested interest in preventing any investigations into their activities. The last few years have taught me if the Democrats are telling us one thing, the opposite is likely true. If Shokin wasn't aggressively investigating corruption, he was probably investigating the wrong people.

[Berzerker]

This doesn't fit history. Look at news stories of the time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-hails-sacking-of-ukraine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190

He was fired because EU and US wanted him gone.

JM

And you dont see a problem with the US firing a prosecutor looking into money pouring into the country from the US and EU to fund certain groups of people? Yes I know Biden and his allies wanted him gone, the question is why. It wasn't because the guy was too corrupt, his replacement took all of 3-4 months to close the case against Burisma and he kept his job for years. But firing a prosecutor with such fanfare sure let other prosecutors know what can happen if they start investigating the wrong people.

From your article:

“This decision creates an opportunity to make a fresh start in the prosecutor general’s office. I hope that the new prosecutor general will ensure that [his] office . . . becomes independent from political influence and pressure and enjoys public trust,” said Jan Tombinski, the EU’s envoy to Ukraine.

The new prosecutor is supposed to ignore the fact foreign politicians just fired the last guy with a billion $ bribe? Yes, let us hope he ensures his office is independent of political influence and pressure.

Mr Tombinski said the EU was also concerned about the resignation or dismissal of several “reform-oriented” prosecutors and reports that Mr Shokin’s office was investigating a “highly-respected” anti-corruption group – an obvious reference to Kiev’s Anti-Corruption Action Centre, which had fiercely criticised Mr Shokin.

Thats why he was canned, he was looking at the money trail from the west to our allies. The IMF said they supported Biden's excellent recommendation. Sounds like Obama and Biden wanted the guy removed and other people dependent on them agreed. When "everyone" says so, everyone is just the people who agree with me.

This Shokin guy said our ambassador Pyatt told him to treat Burisma with white gloves, meaning leave it alone. But in public Pyatt was asking Ukrainians to investigate corruption even singling out Burisma as an example. Now I find that interesting, were we framing him? We tell him in private to stay away from Biden's son while publicly shaming him for not investigating Burisma.

Anyway, Ukraine wanted Clinton to win and they helped. If Trump is to be impeached he has the right to have his lawyer investigate the Obama administration's role in Ukraine - without Obama's people interfering.

[Ming]

Gee... so Trump should be able to investigate without Obama's people interfering, but all Trump does is obstruct the investigation into him.
You can't have it both ways.

[Kidlicious]

if you have power, you can't have anything to do with investigations against your opponents.

JM

It's an ethical violation. No laws were broken. However this must be judged in the full context. The President wasn't trying to fix an election. He was trying to uncover the worst corruption in US history. This impeachment inquiry (or whatever you call it) is a lame cover up, and everyone involved is stone cold crooked.

[Kidlicious]

You are continuing to ignore the history of the time relating to Ukraine, the prosecutor and Biden. Please go back and read those news articles before continuing.

The defense of someone in power can't be to make up accusations and prosecutions with no basis in reality.

JM

That's funny because all you have is an accusation. I didn't make an accusation. I stated a fact. There was no investigation into Shokin. He was accused by his political enemies, Bidens allies. Biden coerced the Ukrainians to fire Shokin when there was no evidence of corruption. So why don't you stop posting fake wikipedia crap.