Separation of church and state - american model

[Bereta_Eder]

It's true america is THE country to go to if separation of church and state is what you want. The only country that matches it and suprasses it in this field is France. The US and France are the most "Religion neutral" countries in the world. Embeded in constitution, practise, collective subconscious ethnomotor myths. Makes me wonder. Why has the US such history? Was it because all the wack job religious nut cases left europe for the americas and they were percecuted by sane people in the old world and said: listen here. we have been persecuted by the sanies LONG ENOUGH. COMPLETE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Or is it because, let's face it the roots of america are all protestant, 100% and there was no need to try to "insert" religion in the "mix". There was religion, only one and it was protestantism. it was after some time catholics arrived and the problems started. but by that time it was too late for the protestants to encroch on the state. the constitutional guarantees were already in place. It's very interesting seeing that as compared to average european mentality american society ressembles taliban society in religious terms. In a good way (if at all possible)

[Bereta_Eder]

So, you have complete separation of church and state in a country that the president swears to god and even its money make reference to god. Very funny. And most people do believe (but that's the same in a lot of other places too)

[Bereta_Eder]

Greece basically doesn't have deep separation of church and state unfortunately. it has to do fighting people of other beliefs for independence. it's also a case of incomplete enlightment procedural change. All religions are equal but one religion is more equal

[Bereta_Eder]

revolutionaries did burn down churchs as well as mosques though (enlightment, direct connection with anciet greek ethnomotos), but then the church asserted itself in the national consciousness

[pchang]

Was it because all the wack job religious nut cases left europe for the americas and they were percecuted by sane people in the old world and said: listen here. we have been persecuted by the sanies LONG ENOUGH. COMPLETE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Or is it because, let's face it the roots of america are all protestant, 100% and there was no need to try to "insert" religion in the "mix". There was religion, only one and it was protestantism. it was after some time catholics arrived and the problems started. but by that time it was too late for the protestants to encroch on the state. the constitutional guarantees were already in place.

Both reasons are valid, but it is more the first thing.

[I AM I AM MOBIUS]

Come? Amerigo. Vest Pucci!

[Proteus_MST]

... There was religion, only one and it was protestantism. ...

I believe american protestants will disagree.
Protestantism isn't as united as the catholic church ... rather it is an umbrella term that encompasses lots of different groups.

Example:
From the english settlers alone you have (aside from others) Puritans, Anglicans and Quakers.
Quakers (in England) were persecuted by Anglicans.
And for the Puritans the Anglicans were too catholic (and they wanted to establish a more pure (and more religious fundamentalist) form of anglicanism in the nerw world).
So, basically, you could expect members of those 3 groups to not get along all too well with each other (at least when it comes to religion)

So I guess there basically was good reason to fear of quarrels because of religion without rules against the government taking influence on religion

[Aeson]

Plus if the church (just one) and state aren’t separated then you only have one oligarchy screwing the common man out of their livelihood. This is inefficient! With separation of church and state you can have many oligarchies all competing to screw the common man out of their livelihood. This gives the common man options as to who will do the screwing and ensures it will be as screwing as possible.

However it is applied hypocritically, as you can see clearly in how prostitution is illegal and opposed by churches. Otherwise the common man would surely choose the prostitutes to do the screwing.

[pchang]

The church is more progressive than prostitutes. The church wants 10% of your income. Rich people pay more. Prostitutes want a fixed fee. Rich and poor have to pay the same.

[BeBMan]

Historically there was also a lot of separation of the head from the body during the French Rev

[Bereta_Eder]

Hm... proteus raised a point (thanks all for contrubuting btw) that protestants persecuted protestants. I thought it was more of a "us" vs "them" (protestans vs catholics) thing. so indeed the first reason seems plausible

[Bereta_Eder]

btw from the protestans I like quakers because it is a feed (oat?) and baptists because slowhand is baptist and is a great texan, I like his style

[I AM I AM MOBIUS]

Guy, ya teen? Wall fall down.

[I AM I AM MOBIUS]

Atheism: Casual references to God in a loyalty pledge are bad... but the loyalty pledge itself is good because I might be authority one day!

[Egbert]

I think the idea of the separation of church and state originated from Popes and Holy Roman Emperors squabbling about who had the right to appoint Bishops. The church won that squabble when an emperor signed something forfeiting the right to appoint bishops in the 12th century.

Er yeah. The Church wanted the secular authority (ie the Holy Roman Emperor) to be separate from the church.