collective responsibility

[Bereta_Eder]

I was reading accounts of the naval battle of naupactus (knows someplaces as the battle of lepanto). hundrends of christian allied ships agaionst the muslim ottoman turk horde which tye pulverized. A spanish wrote something like: " what is a miracle, the wooden planl that united the two ships when christian after christian after christian was slaughtered by the turk and then a new one took his place. he was slaughtered and hungry p[oseidon consumed him below, and another one took his place and another one. in a blink of an eye. What made these people ignore the fright of eternal darkness and pushed forward for eternal freedom. the west. is based on the ancient greek idea of the "atom", the indivinduality is respected, in a sense it is paramount in some cases.

[Bereta_Eder]

why was this ignored? and they say collective responsibility is wrong. something that was dome by your forefathers doeans't affect you. that's bullsh!t. it MUST affect you otherwise there is no accountability of action for a collective entity. and so it is

[Bereta_Eder]

2/3 of the soldier sailors were greek in that naval battle btw

[BlackCat]

2/3 of the soldier sailors were greek in that naval battle btw

Yeah, on the Turk side

[Bereta_Eder]

A tiny minority was on the turk side

[BeBMan]

Everyone had loads of galleys at the time, but Venezians had the ummm...biggest. Of course it was not so nice to row them, in chains...

[Bereta_Eder]

A new type of galley ship yes. however the numerical parity was equal. getting men to raw the galleys was indeed a drag. you could pay someone to do it for you though. in the first instances of the battle 1/3 of the sultans of eastern b!tchdom were kissing the radishes, upside down in the ground

[BeBMan]

At least ancient Greeks and Romans used free guys as rowers. (That "Ben Hur" movie is all wrong in this)

Dunno why that changed in early modern times...

[Bereta_Eder]

shortage of principles

[Proteus_MST]

why was this ignored? and they say collective responsibility is wrong. something that was dome by your forefathers doeans't affect you. that's bullsh!t. it MUST affect you otherwise there is no accountability of action for a collective entity. and so it is

Well, the lack of value for one single persons lif was quite normal till WW2.

I mean, just look at battle tactics in the american civil war and the napoleonan wars.
Soldiers would march in closed lines towards the enemy, while cannonballs whistled around and tore holes into the ranks, dismembering lots of soldiers. Then at a fairly close distance your line and the enemy line would shoot at each other ... hopefully you would be one of those who survived to fight another day.

Or look at assaults at the time around WW1.
You would stand in your trench and then an officer would whistle and you and your comrades would storm towards the enemy trenches ... in no man`s land lots of your comrades would get dismembered by mortar shells and mowed down by MG fire. Hopefully enough people would make it to the barbed wire fenses in order to cut them and be able to storm the enemy trenches (else you would have to retreat to your own trenches ... all the way in danger of getting shot inthe back by MGs or rifles).
No matter whether the assault were successful or failed, hundreds of your own people would lie down on the battlefield, dead or dying, as result of the assault.


Only nowadays in the western world we value a single persons life so much that it would make headlines if 20 western soldiers get killed in another country.
And this stilll isn't true for other countries.
I mean look at the battle of Mogadishu (i.e. the assault depicted in Black Hawk Down).
Hundreds of Somalis got killed while trying to storm the US soldiers positions, but they would keep on trying to storm the US troops positions.
We know the names of all of the few US soldiers killed in that battle ... but noone remembers the names of the hundreds of Somalis killed there

[Bereta_Eder]

black hawk down is one of my favorite films. I have deleted nearly everything from my ortable hard drive but that film isn't one of them. Possibly because it is a rare exception where (even romantically) it has to do with principles. What you said made me think of statues. I though the only ones where the ancient greek ones (with some cheap roman kncok offs) mesopotapia has its own ones. I respect indivinduality eherever it comes from/ But also collective vision

[Bereta_Eder]

I mean I thought that this was the first and last US attempt to indeed be guided by principles. Its first attempt. That failed., There was never a new one. And I respect the somalis or the palestinians. Everyone that fights but gets crushed will always have the greek spirit in its side. The weak, the betrhothen, the hurt, will ALWYAS be greek and always win

[Bereta_Eder]

I am wrong of course. That is not the greek spirit. It is, in the sense that i succeeded thought overwhelming odds, but the spirit I'm actually talking about is the left spirit. The progressive, internationalist one. A greek fascist would persih by my gun in a civil war and I'd be next to a german or turkish or enlgih likewise spirited mind.

[Bereta_Eder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0dBtdPj53A easy a shot rhought the heart of every fascist

[Kidlicious]

Speaking of movies, Saving Private Ryan, is based on historical events. The US Sole Survivor policy was adopted my the military because no mother should lose all of her sons at once, which happened to the Sullivan brothers.