Social progress

[Proteus_MST]

Germany is about to become member of the club of social progresssive countries, where gay marriages (incuding adoptions by gay couples) are allowed

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/30/eu...ote/index.html

[rah]

Yes, congratulations.
The numbers in America of those that support gay marriages continues to increase

http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

A few highlights.

In Pew Research Center polling in 2001, Americans opposed same-sex marriage by a margin of 57% to 35%.
BUT NOW
Based on polling in 2017, a majority of Americans (62%) support same-sex marriage, while 32% oppose it

Two-thirds of Catholics now support same-sex marriage, as do a similar share of white mainline Protestants (68%).

the share of white evangelical Protestants who support same-sex marriage has grown from 27% in 2016 to 35% today.

Support for same-sex marriage now stands at 85% among self-described liberals and 70% among moderates.

conservatives (41%) support same-sex marriage.

The support of 68% of Catholics and 41% of conservatives are the most surprising.
Tolerance is winning over blind hatred.

There is hope for us.

[Lorizael]

Truly amazed there's a social progress thing the US was ahead of Germany on. But good job, Germany.

[Ming]

I still don't understand why people can be against it.
It's not like the law is saying they have to marry somebody of the same sex.
I never would, but I don't care if others want to.

If some people want to consider it a sin, well that's their opinion. Nobody is saying they have to sin.

People's relationships are their business. If 2 consenting adults want to have a relationship, what business is it to others, and why should they even care.
It's a simple matter of some people wanting to cram their views on other people. They want to restrict the rights of other.

[Kidlicious]

Truly amazed there's a social progress thing the US was ahead of Germany on. But good job, Germany.

Germany has made so much progress that they no longer procreate, but instead bring in backwards people who oppose gay marriage.

[BeBMan]

Truly amazed there's a social progress thing the US was ahead of Germany on. But good job, Germany.

Before it was only civil unions/civil partnership

[Ming]

So I guess Kidiot is a backwards person

[Jon Miller]

If some people want to consider it a sin, well that's their opinion. Nobody is saying they have to sin.

I agree with this.

People's relationships are their business. If 2 consenting adults want to have a relationship, what business is it to others, and why should they even care.
It's a simple matter of some people wanting to cram their views on other people. They want to restrict the rights of other.

But not this.

Marriage has been a civil thing forever and is an important part of stability and the raising of children in almost all cultures (including the west).

This is why I favored extending marriage to homosexuals.

Now that the idea that homosexual is not something you are but rather is something you might do is gaining strength (and this idea is coming from science and liberal culture), I am open to revaluate my position (for the 5th time).

JM
(I have just started to see the idea the last two years, but it fits with tradition of both pro and anti homosexual activity cultures throughout earth's history. I do not know how it squares with the former research. I guess I just have to wait.)

[Ming]

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with when you say "But not this".
Are you claiming that it is everybody's business about a relationship between 2 consenting adults?
Or, that some people aren't trying to restrict the rights of others?
Or, that some people aren't trying to cram their religious beliefs on to others?

[Jon Miller]

I am saying that marriages (not 'romantic relationships' and not 'sexual relationships') have traditionally and still are the business of society.

Entirely independent of the religious issues involved, which frankly should be unimportant.

Since it is entirely a societal matter, I don't see why people insist it isn't or that it is about sole about rights.

If the recent scientific and liberal social research is correct and it is something you do and not something you are, then I think the secular (on this question) societies of China and India have it right.

JM

[Ming]

See, I disagree. I think relationships between 2 consenting adults is their business, and not the business of society.
However, thanks to many legal reasons, marriage is important in society, and those rights should be available to all.

[Jon Miller]

But why is it important? Because of the alliances of families and the raising of children.

These are completely societal issues.

Relationships between 2 consenting adults is their business. But there is no reason that should be at all related to the civil institution of marriage.

BTW, no-fault divorce is probably the worse thing for the civil construct of marriage.

JM

[Jon Miller]

So the reason why I was supportive is that I calculated that the harm by limiting 10% of the population from getting married was worse than the harm by weakening the social construct (to be less about alliances/children and more about personal relationships). If homosexual is something you do and not something you are (if the 10% of the population is not 10% of the population that would not otherwise get married) then overall maybe it is harmful.

JM

[Ming]

I never understood the concept that gay marriage weakens the social construct. Exactly how does it do that?
It doesn't effect other people's relationships. The claim that it cheapens marriage is purely bigotry.
Many religions including some christian ones have no problem with it. And the majority of people no longer have a problem with it.

Could someone please explain how it cheapens marriage?
I know as a fact that gays getting married has no effect on my marriage.
But now they can have the same legal rights and protections that my wife and I have.

[Proteus_MST]

Especially the ability to adopt children (the only thing that was missing in relation to the civil union that already was available to homosexuals in germany) will be of great use for society

More kids that have the chance to grow up in loving families insted of having to grow up in orphanages.
And AFAIK kids who were the result of relationships before coming out now also can be adopted by the partner and therefore both partners become de jure full parents of the kid