First Progressive Mosque to Open in Germany

[Kidlicious]

It will be the first of it's kind, where Muslims will not be allowed to talk about killing people (and I hope Sharia). I will pray for Germany, not that they embrace progressive Islam, but that they keep adequate security.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/06/16/germany-opening-first-liberal-mosque-where-men-women-and-gays-pray-together/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

[Proteus_MST]

Yes, it seems to be a good project against islamist fundamentalism, they even have women as priests

[Kidlicious]

Kurds are sometimes considered peaceful muslims. Do you know if this is true? I wonder if they will be attracted to the new mosque.

[Proteus_MST]

Whether or not someone becomes a moderate muslim or a more fundamentalist one seems to have less to do with nationality and more with factors like socialization (i.e. whether one gets lots of contact with germans/non-muslims at school or in his neighborhood and also is acceted by them (and not shunned for being muslim/of non-german origin)), but also with his/her education (the lower the education level, the more likely they will get attracted to fundamentalism)

AFAIK in germany we meanwhile also have regulated religious education at school for muslims (similar to the catholic and evangelical religious lessons we already had during my school time), which is another step at trying to get the kids out of reach of fundmentalist preachers.


Look, for example, at german universities ... only few of the muslim women there run around with any head cover. In contrast to, for example, lower class worker districts with high percentage of muslims (doesn't mean that the inhabitants in those districts are all islamists ... but they often are much more traditionalist/less progressive than others)

You can also see the ifference in the 3 idiotic pupils which bombed a Sikh temple in Essen (while a wedding was taking place) last year ... AFAIK all of them were pupils at a Hauptschule (this is the lowest school type in our 3 tiered school system ... where only those pupils get to, which aren't gifted enough to get to the other two tiers (Realschule or Gymnasium) ... and which have grown more and more into hotspots for problems ... and their lack of perspective got them attracted to extremist Salafists.

As an counter example, Cem Özdemir, Leader of the green party in germany, whose father (a worker) came from turkey to germany 4 years prior to Cems birth. He went to Realschule, later studied and definitely can be called as german as all germans whose ancestors have been living in germany since generations.
He was also among those 9 members of turkish descent in the german parliament, who voted for the Armenia resolution (which tells that the massacre of the armenians was genocide) and is a fighter against islamism


(of course this is just a set of probabilities ... even a high educated university student may get attracted to islamism and, in contrast, there surely are lots of people who went through Hauptschule, or lives/d in lower class districts with a high percentage of muslims, and nevertheless never got attracted to islamic fundamentalism)

[Dry]

Kurds are sometimes considered peaceful muslims. Do you know if this is true? I wonder if they will be attracted to the new mosque.

IIRC depends on which kurds you are talking about. turkish Kurds are mostly commies (PKK), while iraqi Kurds are indeed a lot more secular Muslim, allowing women in their armed force (peshmerga) and allowing Christian, Zoroastrian and other religious minorities in their political organisations.
I don't know much about iranian or syrian Kurds. And I know even less of Kurds from former USSR republics (Armenia? Georgia?).

[Berzerker]

blasphemers!

[Dinner]

If Germany really wants to try moderating Islam and coming up with its own brand of moderate Islam it must ban the foreign funding of mosques as Saudi Arabia spends big building mosques and staffing them with Saudi Wahhbist clerics. Which os the sect which spawned just about all the radical sunni terrorist groups and which is the most militant and radical sect out them. I would go further and say they need to ban foreign clerics especially anyone with any connection what so ever to Wahhbism.

Or they could just sit back and enjoy the terrorism, rapes, and slow conquest of theor nation. The choice is theirs.

[Elok]

While I wouldn't go that far, I agree that the logical first step to fighting Islamic terrorism would be to shut off the Saudi crazy tap. However, that would effectively place us on a war or near-war footing with SA, which would in turn require realigning our whole system of alliances throughout the ME. We have to like the Saudis because they hate Iran, and we have to hate Iran because they support Hezbollah, and we have to hate Hezbollah because Israel hates Hezbollah, and we have to agree with Israel because their AIPAC has congress in a firm grip by the scrotum. Something like that?

[Proteus_MST]

Actually, in germany there is, was, another influence on mosques ... DITIB.
That did a lot of cooperation with the governnments of the individual german states in the past.

Now however, german states severe their ties with DITIB, as the organization is closely connected with the turkish state and it has been found out that, in their mosques, they spread a lo of Erdogan propaganda and also put pressure on (turkish) members of the parishes, to be Erdogans minions (and vote, in turkish elections and referenda, as Errdogan wishes)

Regarding radicalization:
Dunno how much of this is Saudi funded, but the most influence on radicalization (and especially recruiting for IS) seems to come from Salafism (which seems to be closely related to Wahhabism). Actually one Salafist organization ... Lies! (Read, in german) ... which distributed Qurans on shopping lanes, was meanwhile successfully forbidden because it could be shown that they had too close ties to IS and its recruiters.
In a few other cases it could be successfully prevented that well known islamist preachers (like Pierre Vogel) get invited to speak at individual islamic parishes

[Kidlicious]

Whether or not someone becomes a moderate muslim or a more fundamentalist one seems to have less to do with nationality and more with factors like socialization (i.e. whether one gets lots of contact with germans/non-muslims at school or in his neighborhood and also is acceted by them (and not shunned for being muslim/of non-german origin)), but also with his/her education (the lower the education level, the more likely they will get attracted to fundamentalism)

AFAIK in germany we meanwhile also have regulated religious education at school for muslims (similar to the catholic and evangelical religious lessons we already had during my school time), which is another step at trying to get the kids out of reach of fundmentalist preachers.


Look, for example, at german universities ... only few of the muslim women there run around with any head cover. In contrast to, for example, lower class worker districts with high percentage of muslims (doesn't mean that the inhabitants in those districts are all islamists ... but they often are much more traditionalist/less progressive than others)

You can also see the ifference in the 3 idiotic pupils which bombed a Sikh temple in Essen (while a wedding was taking place) last year ... AFAIK all of them were pupils at a Hauptschule (this is the lowest school type in our 3 tiered school system ... where only those pupils get to, which aren't gifted enough to get to the other two tiers (Realschule or Gymnasium) ... and which have grown more and more into hotspots for problems ... and their lack of perspective got them attracted to extremist Salafists.

As an counter example, Cem Özdemir, Leader of the green party in germany, whose father (a worker) came from turkey to germany 4 years prior to Cems birth. He went to Realschule, later studied and definitely can be called as german as all germans whose ancestors have been living in germany since generations.
He was also among those 9 members of turkish descent in the german parliament, who voted for the Armenia resolution (which tells that the massacre of the armenians was genocide) and is a fighter against islamism


(of course this is just a set of probabilities ... even a high educated university student may get attracted to islamism and, in contrast, there surely are lots of people who went through Hauptschule, or lives/d in lower class districts with a high percentage of muslims, and nevertheless never got attracted to islamic fundamentalism)

IDK. We have less radical muslims in the US. Britain and France has way too many radicals. Germany seems bad as well. I think it's something about liberals that radicalize Muslims but I don't want to get into it now.

[Proteus_MST]

IDK. We have less radical muslims in the US. Britain and France has way too many radicals. Germany seems bad as well. I think it's something about liberals that radicalize Muslims but I don't want to get into it now.

It is rather the fact that, despite everything that Trump makes you believe, the vetting process for getting into the USA is rather extreme (already has ben in Obama times), so you only end with a selected few of muslim immigrants and refugees. You get only the creme de la creme of muslim refugees/immigrants, so to speak

In France and the UK you have
1. A partial great social disparity (which is what especially caused several youth riots in paris in the past years)
2. Colonialism till the 20th century, with muslims from the british and french colonies having much less problems to settle into the british/french mainland

Also, of course, the refugee crisis increased the problems, with refugees being brought together in refugee homes, refugee tents or, as in france, even in huge refugee camps, with the conditions in said refugee camps, for example the Calais jungle being a reason for much of thevolence/tensions occurring.

Again, the USA wasn't hit at all by the refugee crisis and those few refugees that the USA took were only taking after extreme vetting.

Something that is among those things not honoured by the current US administration ... that, while the USA are one of the causes for said refugee crisis (by their meddling in the near/middle east), it is the european states that shoulder the burden of the humanitarian crisis that is the result of this

[Kidlicious]

Wow. So you now admit that immigration is causing problems? But you insist that little poorer countries take in refugees?

[Kidlicious]

What muslims learn in liberal schools and by liberal media has a lot to do with it. We have that problem too, but it's 10x worse in the EU.

[-Jrabbit]

Your desperation to find a way to blame liberals is downright pathetic.

[BeBMan]

Kid's expertise about Germany and Europe in general is truly breathtaking