Is everything a religion?

[Lorizael]

Elok, welcome back. You've sometimes said that transhumanism sounds like a religion to you. I've disagreed with that but I don't think I ever got into why. This post by some dude gets at part of my reasons. I am short on time and not in a long-essay-producing mood, so that will have to do for sparking discussion at the moment. Also anyone can participate in this thread. Also for the love of god if this thread somehow becomes about Trump/feminism/who-am-I-kidding-I-mean-Kid-****fest-stuff then I will... err... just become even more sullen and only post to tell you how ****ty my romantic life is. Take that.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/25/is-everything-a-religion/

Most relevant bit:

But all of this stuff about stereotypes and art and insularity sounds a little like religion but even more like culture, or at least subculture.

The difference between “religion” and “culture” has always been pretty vague. Shinto is the best example; it’s less a coherent metaphysical narrative than a bunch of things Japanese people do and a repository for Japanese traditions and rituals. A quick look at Hinduism reveals that they have no idea what gods they believe in, it’s a bunch of different religions stuck together under one umbrella, but the point is that it’s the sort of thing Indian people do and a repository of Indian traditions. Even though Jews have a pretty coherent religion, the line between “Jewish culture” and “Jewish religion” is equally fuzzy. Religion as distinct from culture seems like a pretty Western phenomenon, the result of a triumphant Christianity colonizing cultures it never originated from, ending out with the modern conception of culture as ethnic food + silly costumes.

[Elok]

I was mostly being flippant, TBH. My personal definition of "religion" would be something like "a complex system of normative beliefs and practices rooted in non-empirical and unverifiable claims." There's still some fuzz there, but I can bear it.

WRT what this guy says, religion is at the heart of culture. Anything you say about the way things are or ought to be is going to be rooted in absolute, fundamental assumptions. Those assumptions can't be rooted in anything scientific, because science has to assume a mechanistic universe--let's not get into quantum indeterminate tachyon relativistic virtual plasma stuff here, you know what I mean. Our popular understanding of nature is still basically a massive clock that's been running forever, or close enough to forever as to make no difference. In order to say anything "should" be any particular way, you have to make unfounded assumptions about this clock, or parts of it, serving some unverifiable purpose. You might say that conscious and explicit assumptions are religious. The typical hard-secular worldview seems to more or less ignore the question while treating normative claims as axiomatic, which I can't respect. Our values are Christian leftovers that forgot their beginnings and were naively assumed to be objective truths by virtue of their age and commonness within our culture.

WRT transhumanism, I'm far from the first person to note that nerds talk about "the singularity" in essentially the same way fundies talk about "the rapture." Horrifying, world-ending, treated as inevitable, highly exciting, and completely unproveable outside the small culture of true believers.

[Berzerker]

I like religions that dont need me to convert

so how did Judaism give birth to religions intent on converting the world?

[Kidlicious]

I like religions that dont need me to convert

so how did Judaism give birth to religions intent on converting the world?

Prophesy

[Kidlicious]

Elok, welcome back. You've sometimes said that transhumanism sounds like a religion to you. I've disagreed with that but I don't think I ever got into why. This post by some dude gets at part of my reasons. I am short on time and not in a long-essay-producing mood, so that will have to do for sparking discussion at the moment. Also anyone can participate in this thread. Also for the love of god if this thread somehow becomes about Trump/feminism/who-am-I-kidding-I-mean-Kid-****fest-stuff then I will... err... just become even more sullen and only post to tell you how ****ty my romantic life is. Take that.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/25/is-everything-a-religion/

Most relevant bit:

But all of this stuff about stereotypes and art and insularity sounds a little like religion but even more like culture, or at least subculture.

The difference between “religion” and “culture” has always been pretty vague. Shinto is the best example; it’s less a coherent metaphysical narrative than a bunch of things Japanese people do and a repository for Japanese traditions and rituals. A quick look at Hinduism reveals that they have no idea what gods they believe in, it’s a bunch of different religions stuck together under one umbrella, but the point is that it’s the sort of thing Indian people do and a repository of Indian traditions. Even though Jews have a pretty coherent religion, the line between “Jewish culture” and “Jewish religion” is equally fuzzy. Religion as distinct from culture seems like a pretty Western phenomenon, the result of a triumphant Christianity colonizing cultures it never originated from, ending out with the modern conception of culture as ethnic food + silly costumes.

True Christianity is anti-cultural. I think the same is true about Islam BTW.

[Jon Miller]

This is high on my list to read:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ICN066A/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

which would argue, I think, yes

JM

[Proteus_MST]

I like religions that dont need me to convert

so how did Judaism give birth to religions intent on converting the world?

Christians usually believe that it was their religions prophet, Rabbi Yeshua, who ordered them to do so (after he was dead)
Which, considering that they believe him to be both, the son of god, as well as god himself, supersedes any dissenting orders from traditional judaism.

I for my part assume that this was just a copout by those who, after his death, took the teachings and tranformed it into their own form of religion (same IMHO goes for other deviations that christiaanity took from traditional judaim, for example the freedom from te circumcision rule, if converts came from outside judaism ... it is very clear to me that this was just made in order to facilitate conversions of those people ... and the theological justification not more than an excuse)

[Aeson]

The tax code certainly incentivizes everything being a religion.

The lines between cult, religion, and culture are mostly drawn based on what you want to uplift or demean.

[Kidlicious]

Christians usually believe that it was their religions prophet, Rabbi Yeshua, who ordered them to do so (after he was dead)
Which, considering that they believe him to be both, the son of god, as well as god himself, supersedes any dissenting orders from traditional judaism.

I for my part assume that this was just a copout by those who, after his death, took the teachings and tranformed it into their own form of religion (same IMHO goes for other deviations that christiaanity took from traditional judaim, for example the freedom from te circumcision rule, if converts came from outside judaism ... it is very clear to me that this was just made in order to facilitate conversions of those people ... and the theological justification not more than an excuse)

You continue to insist on this despite the fact that Jesus clearly taught that correct belief made one a Christian, not correct behavior. Do you have any evidence that Jesus taught as you believe that he did?

[ZEE]

I love the direction this thrade is going in, you guise.

[Berzerker]

Christians usually believe that it was their religions prophet, Rabbi Yeshua, who ordered them to do so (after he was dead)
Which, considering that they believe him to be both, the son of god, as well as god himself, supersedes any dissenting orders from traditional judaism.

I for my part assume that this was just a copout by those who, after his death, took the teachings and tranformed it into their own form of religion (same IMHO goes for other deviations that christiaanity took from traditional judaim, for example the freedom from te circumcision rule, if converts came from outside judaism ... it is very clear to me that this was just made in order to facilitate conversions of those people ... and the theological justification not more than an excuse)

you mean cutting the end of your dick off might be a deal breaker?

[Berzerker]

Prophesy

I guess so... but the Messiah in Jewish tradition was supposed to be a king for the Jewish people

You continue to insist on this despite the fact that Jesus clearly taught that correct belief made one a Christian, not correct behavior. Do you have any evidence that Jesus taught as you believe that he did?

but isn't correct belief supposed to translate into correct behavior?

and what is correct belief?

if people who've never heard of Jesus act correctly because of their own beliefs (Jesus didn't invent the golden rule) why do they need Jesus?

[Kidlicious]

I guess so... but the Messiah in Jewish tradition was supposed to be a king for the Jewish people

The Romans proclaimed him King of the Jews .

but isn't correct belief supposed to translate into correct behavior?

Exactly. That's why Jesus condemned the Pharisees, because they did not believe and they did not obey. They even turned the Son of God over to the Roman authority to be crucified. But Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath, not just to heal but to teach. The Pharisees asked him by what authority he did those kind of things. He said by the Father.

and what is correct belief?

Teachings of Jesus, the Word

if people who've never heard of Jesus act correctly because of their own beliefs (Jesus didn't invent the golden rule) why do they need Jesus?

And here's the point, the Jews don't do wrong to circumcise their boys, but they do wrong by not believing in Christ, and therefore are not Christian. Jesus didn't come to circumcise. He came to save the world (John 3:16).

[Elok]

I assume you respect and like Lori more than Kid. Why, then, are you ignoring Lori's wishes ("please ignore the psychotic troll") and granting Kid's ("LOOK AT ME")? Is he such a fascinating conversationalist, or are you under the impression that you can somehow convince him that the feminists are not beaming unchristian thoughts into his head with laser beams from the moon?

Lori: On reflection, I would say that our tendency (yes, including mine) to label things we don't agree with as "religion" is tied into our tendency to worship science as the arbiter of impartial truth. When we say something is "a religion," we're in effect saying "not empirically verifiable so I don't have to respect it LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Of course, science is utterly incapable of providing any value judgments, so this does basically nothing to advance any conversation. It's probably simpler to just flip somebody the bird, or go with the more straightforward "there is an unbridgeable gap between our ontological/epistemological/some-philosophy-word assumptions, and yours are too creepy for me to even consider. I assume the reverse is true as well. How about them Yankees?" Perhaps we should go with that in the future.

This is such a common thing these days precisely because Americans, at least, have largely abandoned their common beliefs and fragmented into tribes who share no moral vocabulary.

[Berzerker]

nobody mentioned Trump or feminism other than you and Lori