The Moral Arc

[Jon Miller]

Of course it's dishonest. The atheist reason for persuading someone not to commit suicide involves persuading them that life is meaningful and worth persevering with. The religion version is going 'you won't go to heaven so you'll spent eternity suffering!!'. Yeah, really grown up and kind way to deal with people suffering from depression..

Except a growing minority of Christians, and Christians since the beginning, haven't believed in hell as a place of eternity suffering in any case.

The 'popular' version was most commonly held in the 17th and 18th centuries (maybe in response to the changes that came about due to the protestant reformation) and in the 4th and 5th centuries (when they were started).

Even now there are many parts of the Anglicans, mainline Protestants, Evangelicals, Orthodox and Catholics who reject it, in addition to the more peripheral groups (SDAs, JWs, UUs, etc) that flat out reject it.

JM

[Jon Miller]

So the church no longer considers suicide to be a mortal sin then?

What church?

The Christian Church never did, although some groups (maybe most groups) did.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Im not talking about sodomy laws, I'm talking about the wife raft of other laws protecting homosexuals and standardizing homosexual relationships in law.

The ability to get gay married, while wonderful, is not a matter of life or of property or even (for many definitions) of liberty.

The idea that special groups, who are not under attack by the state, need special protection is not an obvious idea... and I don't see the reason why every group needs special laws protecting them. African Americans are exception, not the rule, and they are the exception due to the 190+ years of open sustained attacks against them.

JM

[kentonio]

The ability to get gay married, while wonderful, is not a matter of life or of property or even (for many definitions) of liberty.

The idea that special groups, who are not under attack by the state, need special protection is not an obvious idea... and I don't see the reason why every group needs special laws protecting them. African Americans are exception, not the rule, and they are the exception due to the 190+ years of open sustained attacks against them.

JM

Err what? The right to marriage conveys many rights in different states covering inheritance, right to state welfare and even things such as hospital visitations. The protections it brings are huge in some places. There are also laws such as the ones protecting you from being fired based purely on your sexuality. This stuff isn't some progressive fairy dust, this is people's lives and livelihoods at stake.

[kentonio]

What church?

The Christian Church never did, although some groups (maybe most groups) did.

JM

Wow, you're really on a roll today..

[Jon Miller]

Err what? The right to marriage conveys many rights in different states covering inheritance, right to state welfare and even things such as hospital visitations. The protections it brings are huge in some places. There are also laws such as the ones protecting you from being fired based purely on your sexuality. This stuff isn't some progressive fairy dust, this is people's lives and livelihoods at stake.

Inheritance being an issue is primarily about children and this has been of little issue (usually one parent is the prime person who gives it in any case). I am opposed to spousal inheritance being treated as better than other forms in any case. This is obviously an issue of legislative law and not right by court.

Hospital visitations are important but pretty minor compared to everything else. It is the only place where I think 'right' (but minor right) and not some particular of legislative law.

Same with right to state welfare (usually state welfare goes up if umarried, so I think here you are thinking about state pensions and not state welfare). That is also more of an issue of legislative law then right by court.

It is obvious that compared to groups that need protection (African Americans, arguably women), it is very very minor what is provided vesus what should be provided to African Americans (versus the first 180+ years and now) and to women (versus the first 160+ years to now).

JM

[Jon Miller]

Wow, you're really on a roll today..

Since you are ignorant you like to address Christianity as monolithic. It is very much not so, and has never been.

There have been agreements among the vast vast vast majority of Christianity (for the Nicene Creed/etc) which could be considered as monolithic Christianity, but these addressed issues of Christology and salvation and so on and not the particular of suicide.

JM

[kentonio]

No, these are vitally important issues that effect real people's lives. It's not a game of 'who has it worse'. Why exactly are we comparing one group to another, are we only allowed to look after the rights of the most oppressed group now and everyone else is on their own?

[kentonio]

Since you are ignorant you like to address Christianity as monolithic. It is very much not so, and has never been.

There have been agreements among the vast vast vast majority of Christianity (for the Nicene Creed/etc) which could be considered as monolithic Christianity, but these addressed issues of Christology and salvation and so on and not the particular of suicide.

JM

And now the insults start because when it comes to religion you can't hold a discussion without losing your temper. Not very Jesus like I have to say..

I just gave you a link showing many Christians consider it a mortal sin. You don't, fair enough, but your earlier claim that the church never has is clearly untrue when there are churches even now that do.

[Jon Miller]

No, these are vitally important issues that effect real people's lives. It's not a game of 'who has it worse'. Why exactly are we comparing one group to another, are we only allowed to look after the rights of the most oppressed group now and everyone else is on their own?

Because if you divide up people into any grouping based on timescale/arbitrary feature, you can come up with ones that need 'special protection'. It becomes meaningless.

It isn't about 'who had it worse'. It is about 'who has experienced an open, sustained attack on all facets of their existence (life, property, liberty and pursuit of happiness) necessitating state protection'.

Otherwise you have extreme complication, opportunities for corruption and inefficiency, a loss of effectiveness for those who need it most (I would argue already being seeing in respect to African Americans as the push for gay rights has gone forward), and the loss of rights for others. After all, these special protections do take away the rights of others. The question is about when it is necessary or when it is not.

JM

[Jon Miller]

And now the insults start because when it comes to religion you can't hold a discussion without losing your temper. Not very Jesus like I have to say..

I just gave you a link showing many Christians consider it a mortal sin. You don't, fair enough, but your earlier claim that the church never has is clearly untrue when there are churches even now that do.

I haven't lost my temper at all. And I am not insulting you. It isn't an insult to say that you are uninformed or ignorant about a subject that you are uninformed about.

I have informed you that you are almost never interesting or make valid points on issues of religion (primarily because of your ignorance).

I never argued that churches now do not consider it a mortal sin.

If you had said 'Catholic Church' or if, by your previous posting, you had made clear that you were just referring to the Catholic Church, I wouldn't have said anything. But you haven't shown a consistent Catholic (or other Christian) perspective or a clear understanding of the issues/history/beliefs of different religious groups and Christian ones in particular.

JM

[Jon Miller]

BTW, Kid is also very ignorant about Christianity and also talks about, and claims to be Christian. This is much worse.

JM

[Kidlicious]

So the church no longer considers suicide to be a mortal sin then?

If you know that I'm a Methodist why did you ask me that?

[Bereta_Eder]

If I pray could the pigeon fly away??

[Kidlicious]

BTW, Kid is also very ignorant about Christianity and also talks about, and claims to be Christian. This is much worse.

JM

You really love to lord it over others don't you? What is it that I'm ignorant of? You love the false accusations don't you?