So I opened the Koran for the first time and the first verse I read was...

[rah]

And it's quite convenient to be able to say it's because GOD told me so.

[Elok]

I think there's some truth to the idea that secularization is a weird, modern trend, but I feel as though the relationship between religion and public life has historically not always had the character that it does in Islam. I've been reading a lot of ancient Greek philosophy recently, where Socrates and Plato and Aristotle seem to take this kind of jokey, half-respectful tone with regards to religion. They'll say things like, "Well, it's said that the gods love X. And that must be true, but it leads to Y, which is crazy! So let's come up with something completely different instead that doesn't make the gods look like idiots." Now, obviously, you've got bits like Socrates being put to death for supposed irreligion, but it often seems like what is required in ancient Greek society is reverence for the idea of the gods, rather than submission to any one particular god's commands. And that doesn't seem particularly similar to what you see in Islamic societies. Of course, ancient Greece != the rest of world history, but it's an example I'm currently somewhat familiar with.

The Greek conception of the gods is radically different from that of the Muslims; they were totally open-ended polytheists who believed the gods came from nature instead of vice-versa. Hard to get more different from Islam without abandoning the idea of deities altogether. However, they were akin to Muslims in having no notion of religious and secular spheres. Greece and Rome had no distinct priestly hierarchy; prominent members of the community would function as priests of their specific class or occupation (rich smiths might be priests of Hephaestus, etc), in much the same way any reputable Muslim can serve as an imam (or, in pre-modern times, any sufficiently educated Jew could be a rabbi in addition to his day job). The Roman Emperor was Pontifex Maximus (high priest) in addition to being ostensibly divine himself. No division between the religious and the secular--because religion is not otherworldly, but tied firmly to participation in civic life. See also the theocracies of Egypt and Sumer. Not sure about Zoroastrianism or Hinduism. Confucianism unites religion to government inextricably, to the extent that it is a religion at all.

[ZEE]

Elok is a nerd.

[Elok]

As for the Koran, I checked it out from the library a couple of weeks ago. I found it disorganized, incoherent, and repetitive in style and structure; by turns vindictive, authoritarian, and petulant in tone; prone to using absurd and nonsensical arguments to establish its own legitimacy; and overall evincing a lamentably incomplete understanding of the Bible. In short, it was not unlike something written by Kidicious. I gave up a quarter of the way through, returned it to the library, and turned my attention to better works. And the Koran might have been worth reading just by virtue of being scripture for the world's second-largest religion. Yet you lot are not only reading Kid's gibberish, but responding to it, even though he speaks for nobody but himself.

What gives?

[Kidlicious]

I was musing in more general terms but if you saw yourself as a victim, oh well.
It's always about Kid.

No. I didn't see myself as a victim. I saw you puffing yourself up to no end, and I still do.

[Kidlicious]

As for the Koran, I checked it out from the library a couple of weeks ago. I found it disorganized, incoherent, and repetitive in style and structure; by turns vindictive, authoritarian, and petulant in tone; prone to using absurd and nonsensical arguments to establish its own legitimacy; and overall evincing a lamentably incomplete understanding of the Bible. In short, it was not unlike something written by Kidicious. I gave up a quarter of the way through, returned it to the library, and turned my attention to better works. And the Koran might have been worth reading just by virtue of being scripture for the world's second-largest religion. Yet you lot are not only reading Kid's gibberish, but responding to it, even though he speaks for nobody but himself.

What gives?

You like to puff yourself up too.

[Bereta_Eder]

Socrates wasn't really convicted for being "irreligious".
Athens right after the peloponesian wars was turning very conservative and socrates kept stirring things up and questioning everything.
The official accusation was "corrupting youth's morals".

In that time's climate his "stirring the water" didn't bode well.
His attitude was ok I respect the gods now let's talk about things that matter.

Also greek gods were immoral and very human.
There wasn't a "code of condact" to follow just indeed acknowledge that they existed and petitioning them through sacrifices and offerings.

For example in naxos there are big square shaped holes in the ground next to the temple of demetra (goddess of earth and harvest)

They threw offerings in the holes to petition for the blossom of the crops

(I didn't have anything else so I poured some orange juice even though I'm not a farmer)

[Kidlicious]

Socrates wasn't really convicted for being "irreligious".
Athens right after the peloponesian wars was turning very conservative and socrates kept stirring things up and questioning everything.
The official accusation was "corrupting youth's morals".

In that time's climate his "stirring the water" didn't bode well.
His attitude was ok I respect the gods now let's talk about things that matter.

Also greek gods were immoral and very human.
There wasn't a "code of condact" to follow just indeed acknowledge that they existed and petitioning them through sacrifices and offerings.

For example in naxos there are big square shaped holes in the ground next to the temple of demetra (goddess of earth and harvest)

They threw offerings in the holes to petition for the blossom of the crops

(I didn't have anything else so I poured some orange juice even though I'm not a farmer)

He was accused of not accepting the Gods of the state. He answered in a way that was typical of him, and they executed him. He believed in God, just not the same as they did.

[Elok]

I think an orange juice libation actually gets you on the gods' **** list; annoyed by your cheapness, Zeus gives your sister's phone number to all the satyrs.

[Bereta_Eder]

there's a crisis going on he'll understand

BTW the site of the temple is mezmerizing. like a valley in the middle of tall green mountains next to the blue sea.
probably one of the best sceneries I've ever seen.
They knew where to build them

[Egbert]

So pathetic...

Everything about you is hatred and bitterness. The way you hate your wife despite abusing her so much she walked out on you; your racism; your homophobia; that you condone rape; your hatred for Islam...

Such anger...

I hate everyone, and everything. Is that OK?

[NICE MOBIUS]

As for the Koran, I checked it out from the library a couple of weeks ago. I found it disorganized, incoherent, and repetitive in style and structure; by turns vindictive, authoritarian, and petulant in tone; prone to using absurd and nonsensical arguments to establish its own legitimacy. In short, it was not unlike something written by Kidicious.

What gives, is that you appear to have exactly the same sort of prejudiced and frankly hypocritical opinions of the Quran as Kid has in my books.

Your description above might as well be my opinion of my attempt to read the bible...

I gave up a quarter of the way through, returned it to the library, and turned my attention to better works.

Similarly with my attempt to read the Neanderthal scrawlings of the bible - hence my calling out the hypocrisy of your stance...

Seriously, it makes me laugh when religious people preach on about the absurdity of other religions, and frankly we all know that you've got a huge, and dare I say it, bigoted axe to grind with Islam, Elok.

[Kidlicious]

It's not prejudice after you've read the Koran

[NICE MOBIUS]

My point is that you can't think that one book of made-up mumbo-jumbo is bat**** crazy, and not the other.

That is why I call bull**** on you and Elok.

[Kidlicious]

My point is that you can't think that one book of made-up mumbo-jumbo is bat**** crazy, and not the other.

That is why I call bull**** on you and Elok.

You lumped me an elok together. I didn't complain about it being mumbo-jumbo. IMO, that's not a good argument.