Another country starts to fall into Daesh control... Of course, it's the one where USA armed "opposition"

[NICE MOBIUS]

Screw that! Kent wants us to invade China and overthrow the evil dictators there!

Kent's utopian dreams are so stuffed full of contradictions and wishful thinking as to be utterly laughable. Many of the dictators in the world today are a result of the interventionism that he himself espouses.

I mean, his hypocritical position is that these guys should have been toppled, but the west 'did it wrong', as if the great Kent in his infinite wisdom could do better!?

The fact of the matter is, that a number of highly developed, stable secular nations, where women were treated in a similar manner in the west - that happened to be run by dictators...

...are now war-torn ****holes, where probably at least a million people have died; many many millions have been displaced (at least 4m in Syria alone); minorities such as Christians, Chaldeans, Yazidis etc have been systematically ethnically-cleansed; entire communities wiped out; crazy jihadi caliphates have been created... I mean, the list is endless, the suffering that has been heaped on Iraq, Libya and Syria by the West...

Yes, Kent relishes in regime change for it's sake to take out 'some', but not all dictators. Like a bully, he ignores the really bad dictatorships like China and NK. He'd really like to go after Iran too, but he's too scared. He likes visiting death on the unfree from the comfort of his armchair floating way up in the clouds of Cloud-cuckooland...

Whether you realise it or not, you're basically a warmonger in the mould of Blair/Bush, except, oh wait, they did it wrong...

You're the one that makes me sick, because it's your kind of policies that have created the mess in Iraq, Libya and Syria. Afghanistan was a basket-case already, though it was your style of meddling that got it there in the first place.

You don't have the solutions, you don't even have the first clue, because I bet your bottom dollar that you would get it just as wrong also!

[kentonio]

[NICE MOBIUS]

I didn't dodge it, I've previously written extremely long posts about it here in conversations with C0ckney. I just decided I couldn't be bothered to repeat myself, as you were also involved in the previous conversations and clearly didn't bother listening the first time.

Kindly point out where they are then.

You said that Gaddafi's son was being groomed to take over and was 'progressive'. Kindly explain how this isn't you telling the people there that they should put up with it in the hope that something magically improves in future?

Read the links and you'll understand.

Whereas yours is apparently that: we may have directly or indirectly killed you/forced you into poverty/made you become a sex slave/persecuted you - BUT WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY GOING TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, SO SUCK IT UP *****ES!

Er no. I wouldn't have been responsible for any of those actions, because I wouldn't have carried out the actions that would have caused those scenarios in the first place.

Let me ask you one thing, do you apply the same standards when blacks fought for their civil rights or when gays fought for their civil rights? Was your answer that they should just sit back and wait for history to wander glacially into line with their equality? Because if not, I'm struggling to see how you justify the difference.

They struggled peacefully. Majorly massive difference there! Talk about clutching at straws!

Also, the sad fact is that they had to struggle massively against the oppression of your kind. Conservatives. So really, bringing up stuff like that reflects badly on you, as you support a political ideology that is instinctively racist and homophobic.

No wonder you're so irrational and emotional: trying to square the circle of being a conservative whilst knowing deep down what they truly stand for - it's enough to send anyone around the bend!

[NICE MOBIUS]

I'm surprised you can live with yourself. Don't images of drowned baby Syrian refugees give you nightmares? I mean you wanted them to be free, but that was the unfortunate consequence of your interventionism...

[NICE MOBIUS]

Also, it's quite telling that in Kent's supposedly 'free' countries of Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, well according to Freedom in the World, they're still not free!

But hey, best to stick your head in the sand and not read the link, lest it mess up your utopian ideals with their bloody realities...

Just to help you out a bit:

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/afghanistan

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/iraq

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/libya

Oh dear, it's all going horribly wrong...

[Ellestar]

No.

The reality is there is a spectrum between free market and socialism, and you'll find democratic nations with economies at a wide range of points in that spectrum. Pretending capitalism and democracy are the same thing is just absurd.

But all these econonies are capitalist economies anyway. I don't understand what are you arguing with.

You're conflating "need" with "sometimes does".

As i already said, i don't care about theory. Practice shows that even the best democracies in the world, like some western europe ones, need oppression. If anything, government is a tool of oppression by itself, and democracy uses a government. Just like a society is a tool of oppression of individuals that forces individuals to live by the society's rules. Just as well democracy forces everyone to live by their rules, and it even tries to enforce it's rules on other countries. Isn't it a form of oppression to demand that other societies (and so, people in them) should change to conform to democratic standards?

Fascism != Capitalism != Democracy.

I said Capitalists - as in, ideological enemies of Proletariat, who started two wars against USSR in 30 years. It was a very convicing reason to not take security lightly.

That's why you needed a prison style wall and shot people who were trying to leave?

Let's get real. First, outside was controlled by capitalists - enemies of proletariat.
Second, life in USSR was better than in absolute majority of the countries of the world at that time, with the exception of a select few richest countries in the world. So i have no sympathy for someone who tried to run away. They lived good enough as it is.

Just because they're paid well doesn't mean they aren't workers.

Well, fine, i don't want to argue about it. Effects of globalization is another different topic altogether.

[rah]

Let's get real. First, outside was controlled by capitalists - enemies of proletariat.
Second, life in USSR was better than in absolute majority of the countries of the world at that time, with the exception of a select few richest countries in the world. So i have no sympathy for someone who tried to run away. They lived good enough as it is.

You prove his point. Very few countries shoot those that try to leave. Care to list which ones those are.
And real telling that you seem to support shooting them. That attitude kind of sums up the problem. They were living so good that they risked being killed to be anywhere else. Hmmm.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

[kentonio]

I'd forgotten how easy it is to wind up Mobius and set him tottering around like a Duracell bunny. I've missed this place.

[NICE MOBIUS]

Yeah, right, you're deluded about that in the same way as you're deluded about everything else...

Anyway, best you retreat from the field of battle with your tail between your legs.

[Ellestar]

You prove his point. Very few countries shoot those that try to leave. Care to list which ones those are.
And real telling that you seem to support shooting them. That attitude kind of sums up the problem. They were living so good that they risked being killed to be anywhere else. Hmmm.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

They tried to illegally cross the border. What exactly guards should do, anyway?

And yeah, in a millions of people there are always idiots out there who are crazy enough for that stuff. You gave a 2015 Nobel Prize to a perfect example of a loony - Svetlana Alexievich. I don't know where you manage to find the most retarded of the retarded, i guess you have a talent for it or something... I guess you managed to brainwash some idiots during a Cold War so much that they tried to run away "to a better life", so what?

Besides, who you are to talk? Your policemen kill 1000 of your citizens every year during arrests. They even shoot kids during arrests. I have a feeling that USSR border guard was killing less than a thousand per year, that would have caused too much uproar, i bet. And you're supposedly a democracy.

[giblets]

You gave a 2015 Nobel Prize to a perfect example of a loony - Svetlana Alexievich.

I didn't realize rah was Norwegian

[kentonio]

They tried to illegally cross the border. What exactly guards should do, anyway?

I think you'll find its more normal for border guards to care about people trying to get IN not out.

[Bereta_Eder]

Turkmen are turks (the name gives it away)

Erdogan wants to assert himself as leader of the mooslims but he can't because the most polemic/dynamic fractions of them (arabs) hate his guts and Turkey's.

He has a better chance trying to get under his wing turkmen.

So his game is neither balkans (the power status quo has changed DRASTICALLY (putin) nor mediteranean (too many greek frigates and subs and planes) nor north africa/middle east (arabs literally hate ottomans). It's the caucasus. But even there he can't (russia/iran.iraq)

So he found some turkmen, tuned them into nationalistic grey wolve terrorists and imported some islamic terrorists from deep anatolia to live in their villages. (ISIS recruits)

Then putin leveled them.

So the kurds can advance.

Sultan is no match for the tsar.

meanwhile europe has its head deep in its ass and will get flooded with immigrants even if greece becomes a refugee camp.

[Bereta_Eder]

By the way, given that it's now proven that Turkey supports terrorists on a state level, shouldn't USA and EU, like, i don't know, impose sanctions on Turkey?

WHy should they?

They trade with saudi arabia and its THE country that gave birth to radical islamic ideology.

as long as isis chopps heads only of the populace and the war machine keeps bringing in the big bucks for the industries, they don't care.

You shouldn't do the basic error:

west is not moral.

it's like a dumb bear. slap it in its face hard enough it will limp away (like you've done with ukraine and syria)

[rah]

I think you'll find its more normal for border guards to care about people trying to get IN not out.

And thinking this is normal and acceptable is really disturbing.

And before he trots out the normal "well your police kill people" I think the police are in the wrong and it needs to be fixed. He doesn't see anything wrong with shooting people trying to leave.
BIG DIFFERENCE.