Another country starts to fall into Daesh control... Of course, it's the one where USA armed "opposition"

[NICE MOBIUS]

Also pretty funny calling the Saudis MY best mates, when I've spent years ripping into the hypocrisy of the west calling one of the most repressive and extremist regimes in the world our 'allies'.

Oh wait, YOU'RE allow to whine about the hypocrisy of the west - but I'm not!!???

And there we have it: the west doesn't give a flying **** about dictators oppressing their subjects - just as long as the dictators in question are on our side.

You make me laugh, Kent.

[kentonio]

Oh wait, YOU'RE allow to whine about the hypocrisy of the west - but I'm not!!???

And there we have it: the west doesn't give a flying **** about dictators oppressing their subjects - just as long as the dictators in question are on our side.

You make me laugh, Kent.

You're a hypocrite because you jump to criticize western examples of authoritarianism but you're fine with brown people having to live under far worse systems. You're the one supporting dictators right to continue ruling, not me.

[kentonio]

You're only attacking me so forcefully because you're embarrassed by the fact that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever to do about the whole situation.

I mean look at your central argument: They're not perceived failures - they're actual failures! The West should never have got involved in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria! The litany of failure egregious in the extreme!

But hey, if you're against my criticism of the West, then you must for their actions!? You can't have it both ways, Kent.

We should never have got involved, but we did. Seriously, what's your beef about that!?

And how else do you propose to magic away these dictators!? Regime change!? That's worse than Blair and Bush...

Clearly your issues are that it is YOU that has sickening ideas and a severely misaligned moral compass.

I know exactly what I'd have done about those situations. You can change a regime without completely ****ing up the country in the process, there are numerous examples of it across the world. We continually screw it up because we're incredibly arrogant and insist that things have to end up the best possible way for our interests. What is completely contemptible is sitting there saying 'wah wah wah any kind of intervention is wrong, wah!!' like you're doing.

You have no coherent alternative for any of this ****, you'd rather just sit and let people suffer under oppressive regimes including the threat of torture, rape and death just as long as you don't have to suffer any white guilt over it. The fact that you've tried to cheerlead for Gaddafi in this thread meanwhile is a whole new level of ****ing sick.

[NICE MOBIUS]

You're a hypocrite because you jump to criticize western examples of authoritarianism but you're fine with brown people having to live under far worse systems. You're the one supporting dictators right to continue ruling, not me.

Are you really that simple-minded that you actually believe that's what I believe?

I don't 'support' dictators and they certainly don't have a 'right' to rule. So get a grip and stop slandering me with lies about my beliefs.

Now go back and try to actually understand my position, there's a good little boy.

[kentonio]

Are you really that simple-minded that you actually believe that's what I believe?

I don't 'support' dictators and they certainly don't have a 'right' to rule. So get a grip and stop slandering me with lies about my beliefs.

Now go back and try to actually understand my position, there's a good little boy.

You've said more than enough about how the Libyan people should have just put up with their oppression because hey maybe the dictators son would have been a slightly more progressive dictator. In other words its fine for those people to suffer as long as you don't have to deal with life being morally difficult sometimes.

Perhaps you should tell Safiya, who spent 5 years being raped by Gaddafi that she should have just put up with it, because it was better than someone actually overthrowing the *****.

http://english.alarabiya.net/article...20/178224.html

[NICE MOBIUS]

I know exactly what I'd have done about those situations. You can change a regime without completely ****ing up the country in the process, there are numerous examples of it across the world. We continually screw it up because we're incredibly arrogant and insist that things have to end up the best possible way for our interests. What is completely contemptible is sitting there saying 'wah wah wah any kind of intervention is wrong, wah!!' like you're doing.

Go on then. How would you have done Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria better? This is going to be good!

You have no coherent alternative for any of this ****, you'd rather just sit and let people suffer under oppressive regimes including the threat of torture, rape and death just as long as you don't have to suffer any white guilt over it. The fact that you've tried to cheerlead for Gaddafi in this thread meanwhile is a whole new level of ****ing sick.

So basically you're accusing me of being the same as your government? Because that's what the UK govt has done historically with all these dictatorships at one point or another. Not to mention all the current dictators in the world that we cosy up to and sell arms to...

The world is awash with dictatorships and 'democracies' run by nasty people - what are you going to do with China, India and Turkey for example, Mr High and Mighty!!???

Wow, I never had a clue that you were this naive!?

And at no point did I ever cheerlead Gaddafi, you moron.

It's funny watching your emotions cloud your judgement so badly that you badly misunderstand the subject at hand so badly...

[NICE MOBIUS]

You've said more than enough about how the Libyan people should have just put up with their oppression because hey maybe the dictators son would have been a slightly more progressive dictator. In other words its fine for those people to suffer as long as you don't have to deal with life being morally difficult sometimes.

Again taking things out of context and spinning them. How do you live with yourself, Kent...?

It's like you're utterly broken from reality. I mean, are you saying that the vast majority of Libyans lives are better now than they were before? Is that really your position!?

Perhaps you should tell Safiya, who spent 5 years being raped by Gaddafi that she should have just put up with it, because it was better than someone actually overthrowing the *****.

http://english.alarabiya.net/article...20/178224.html

So, one person's uncorroborated story? Wow, OK. That's the best you can manage!

I've never once said Gaddafi was a great guy, but I provided links (which you've ignored) point to the fact that Libya was peacefully heading in the right direction before the Arab Spring. Also, assuming that sort of thing is true, which is obviously abhorrent, I still hold the likes of Tony Blair as a worse evil that's destroyed the lives of vastly more people than Gaddafi ever did, for example...

[kentonio]

You're a coward basically, you jump up and down to point and scream about western wrongs, but never provide any answers of your own. Worse you're completely paternistic about the actual real people in the ME and lecture about how they should just put up with their terrible conditions, despite these being largely a consequence of prior western actions. Sad, but utterly predictable.

[kentonio]

Oh and once again, it's not 'my' government, it's 'our' government. Unless you renounced your citizenship recently?

[Dinner]

I saw an interesting study which examined the country of origin for 20,000 pro-ISIS tweets. The #1 place for ISIS support was Saudi Arabia followed by Iraq, Syria, Tunis, and... Belgium. France, Germany, Sweden, and the UK round off the top countries. Europe has a massive problem. With the Sunni Muslim immigrant communities being radicalized.

[NICE MOBIUS]

You're a coward basically, you jump up and down to point and scream about western wrongs.

I'm a coward!? Yet you're the one who said yourself:

I know exactly what I'd have done about those situations. You can change a regime without completely ****ing up the country in the process, there are numerous examples of it across the world.

Come on then, Mr Smarty-pants, I've asked you once already what you would have done differently and you ducked the opportunity to answer - so I ask you again...?

Also, what are these numerous examples...?

...but never provide any answers of your own. Worse you're completely paternistic about the actual real people in the ME and lecture about how they should just put up with their terrible conditions, despite these being largely a consequence of prior western actions. Sad, but utterly predictable.

I've actually provided numerous examples. Mostly it's not to interfere, or at least to do so from a position of diplomacy first. Really it's that simple. I have never once said that people 'should put up with their 'terrible' conditions', kindly point to where I said that. All I've said consistently is that forcibly removing these regimes is not the answer and completely counter-productive. We have clear and concrete proof of that across the countries mentioned, especially in Iraq, Syria and Libya, where women's rights have gone back to the dark ages and hundreds of thousands of people are dead.

Apparently your answer is: we may have directly or indirectly killed you/forced you into poverty/made you become a sex slave/persecuted you - BUT AT LEAST YOU'RE FREE! Um, ish...

Yes, the west needs to fix the **** they caused, but not by blowing the places up that they're trying to 'save'...

Let's face it, we're only there because of vested interests. Frankly you're the hypocrite in all this, not me.

[NICE MOBIUS]

I saw an interesting study which examined the country of origin for 20,000 pro-ISIS tweets. The #1 place for ISIS support was Saudi Arabia followed by Iraq, Syria, Tunis, and... Belgium. France, Germany, Sweden, and the UK round off the top countries. Europe has a massive problem. With the Sunni Muslim immigrant communities being radicalized.

**** off, racist!

[kentonio]

I didn't dodge it, I've previously written extremely long posts about it here in conversations with C0ckney. I just decided I couldn't be bothered to repeat myself, as you were also involved in the previous conversations and clearly didn't bother listening the first time.

I've actually provided numerous examples. Mostly it's not to interfere, or at least to do so from a position of diplomacy first. Really it's that simple. I have never once said that people 'should put up with their 'terrible' conditions', kindly point to where I said that. All I've said consistently is that forcibly removing these regimes is not the answer and completely counter-productive.

You said that Gaddafi's son was being groomed to take over and was 'progressive'. Kindly explain how this isn't you telling the people there that they should put up with it in the hope that something magically improves in future?

Apparently your answer is: we may have directly or indirectly killed you/forced you into poverty/made you become a sex slave/persecuted you - BUT AT LEAST YOU'RE FREE! Um, ish...

Whereas yours is apparently that: we may have directly or indirectly killed you/forced you into poverty/made you become a sex slave/persecuted you - BUT WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY GOING TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, SO SUCK IT UP *****ES!

Let me ask you one thing, do you apply the same standards when blacks fought for their civil rights or when gays fought for their civil rights? Was your answer that they should just sit back and wait for history to wander glacially into line with their equality? Because if not, I'm struggling to see how you justify the difference.

[Ellestar]

Stupid capitalists start wars for short-term gains. Clever ones do things that expand the overall markets allowing for long term prosperity.

It's almost a classical Prisoner's dilemma, but there are not two but a millions of capitalists. It's obviously more efficient to go for personal short-term gains, instead of sacrificing your own gains in the hopes of a future profits by making everyone richer. As a result, we see all these invasions by USA.

[Ellestar]

By the way, given that it's now proven that Turkey supports terrorists on a state level, shouldn't USA and EU, like, i don't know, impose sanctions on Turkey?