Banning the Fleur de Lis

[ricketyclik]

I am loyal to my principles first. Arbitrarily being loyal to one administrative level of government over another seems odd to me.

Note I did not use the word "first".

[ricketyclik]

I don't see it as being loyal to a government, but as being part of a community.

[ricketyclik]

A one-night-standing-with-young-chick-aspiring community.

[Elok]

It's commonly said that, before the Civil War, people said "the United States are [X]," and after it "the United States is [X]." That is, it was a confederation of distinct entities before, not a country. People before it generally thought of themselves as citizens of their particular states more than of the country as a whole, because the country as a whole was merely the sum of its parts. Or so I hear. Bear in mind that, back then, it was a lot harder to move and communicate long distances, so Maine or Ohio was essentially a rumor to a resident/citizen of Louisiana.

I've always found patriotism somewhat baffling--when I am loyal to "America," am I loyal primarily to the government (bleh), the collected group of people living under its rule (don't know them, have no real reason to privilege them thus over foreigners), or to a hazy notion of general American-ness propagated by schools? I'm not loyal to ideas; I can believe in ideas, but I'm loyal to people. IIUC Robert E. Lee was not abstractly loyal to the State of Virginia as such, it was merely where the bulk of his friends and family happened to live, and its government had gone against the Union. I do not think he was a fool or terribly immoral to want to defend his friends and family in spite of the higher principles at stake in a war he could influence greatly, but not prevent or control.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Yes, but in this particular war, surely the best way to defend his friends and family was not to go to war in the first place...

[Elok]

? Well, no, because the war was not decided by him, but by state legislatures who seceded. His influence on that score would have been negligible. It was going to happen, the only question was whether he'd be invading or defending. Or are you suggesting he should have resigned his commission and remained at home, standing on the porch with a rifle to warn off Union troops?

[kentonio]

I've always found patriotism somewhat baffling--when I am loyal to "America," am I loyal primarily to the government (bleh), the collected group of people living under its rule (don't know them, have no real reason to privilege them thus over foreigners), or to a hazy notion of general American-ness propagated by schools? I'm not loyal to ideas; I can believe in ideas, but I'm loyal to people. IIUC Robert E. Lee was not abstractly loyal to the State of Virginia as such, it was merely where the bulk of his friends and family happened to live, and its government had gone against the Union. I do not think he was a fool or terribly immoral to want to defend his friends and family in spite of the higher principles at stake in a war he could influence greatly, but not prevent or control.

It's easy to think that because of our modern views on patriotism, and because of statements like..

“With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home.”

..but it's worth remembering that loyalty to seemingly abstract notions like state and nation were much, much stronger back then, if anything strengthened by the limited communication and travel. Lee also said..

“If Virginia stands by the old Union, so will I. But if she secedes (though I do not believe in secession as a constitutional right, nor that there is sufficient cause for revolution), then I will follow my native State with my sword, and, if need be, with my life.”

If you need reinforcement of that idea, it's worth considering the huge numbers of families who ended up fighting for opposite sides because of differing opinions of honour and loyalty. Or to quote Lee himself on honour..

I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honour for its preservation.

[kentonio]

I've always found patriotism somewhat baffling--when I am loyal to "America," am I loyal primarily to the government (bleh), the collected group of people living under its rule (don't know them, have no real reason to privilege them thus over foreigners), or to a hazy notion of general American-ness propagated by schools? I'm not loyal to ideas; I can believe in ideas, but I'm loyal to people. IIUC Robert E. Lee was not abstractly loyal to the State of Virginia as such, it was merely where the bulk of his friends and family happened to live, and its government had gone against the Union. I do not think he was a fool or terribly immoral to want to defend his friends and family in spite of the higher principles at stake in a war he could influence greatly, but not prevent or control.

It's easy to think that because of our modern views on patriotism, and because of statements like..

“With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home.”

..but it's worth remembering that loyalty to seemingly abstract notions like state and nation were much, much stronger back then, if anything strengthened by the limited communication and travel. Lee also said..

“If Virginia stands by the old Union, so will I. But if she secedes (though I do not believe in secession as a constitutional right, nor that there is sufficient cause for revolution), then I will follow my native State with my sword, and, if need be, with my life.”

If you need reinforcement of that idea, it's worth considering the huge numbers of families who ended up fighting for opposite sides because of differing opinions of honour and loyalty. Or to quote Lee himself on honour..

I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honour for its preservation.

[I AM MOBIUS]

E.g. dumbass, flat, outright stupidity.

[Elok]

Okay, wait. If Mobius is back as Mobius (and now gone on sabbatical), just who are you? You don't act like the latest incarnation of gribbler. Are you some sort of Moby impersonator, or are you actually Moby who has decided to leave with the original but not the DL?

[N35t0r]

Um, Moby retook posting with his original login because it had lost some posts to the missing threads. Now it's back at 9,999 posts, he resumed posting with I am mobius.

The leaving forever got thwarted by Slowwy being Slowwy.

[Elok]

Ah, I didn't actually read the thread b/c he does it so often and I don't really care. Thanks.

[Dauphin]

Note I did not use the word "first".

Horsie did though. And no other frame of reference was given.