[civil] "Greece moves closer to eurozone exit after delaying €300m repayment to IMF "

[Saras]

Yes, the rest of Europe should also organize referenda where they put the following question to their population: "Do you agree that large sums of your tax money are used to help the greek people while it could be used to alliveate austerity measures at home ?"

Why do you hate democracy?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Dictatorship is clearly better, you can even see Putin from the border, if you look across with binoculars.

[Saras]

Dictatorship is clearly better, you can even see Putin from the border, if you look across with binoculars.

It's not dictatorship if people refuse to give you money unconditionally.

[dannubis]

Well that is Europe's problem. If we really are a union, you should be willing to support the Greeks as much as you are willing to support "home". Imagine if Flanders was saying that they are paying too much tax into the treasury and it is being spent to support Wallonia. How would that end?

Oh wait!?!

You may say that it is not the "same", but given the currency union this should also be a part of the bargain. Which the west clearly points out that "it is not", so really the Greeks can either take the scorched earth policies of central EU bureaucrats like you, and all move out physically to Germany.

Why would I say it is "not he same". Both referendum questions are EXACTELY the same.

However, obviously, 1 is a "victory for democracy" and the other is considered "part of the bargain". Selective democracy

[OneFootInTheGrave]

It's not dictatorship if people refuse to give you money unconditionally.

The whole process started as banks doing unsound risk management and giving Greek state the money. Not the people. Somehow this now became austere Europeans vs wasteful Greeks.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Why would I say it is "not he same". Both referendum questions are EXACTELY the same.

However, obviously, 1 is a "victory for democracy" and the other is considered "part of the bargain". Selective democracy

What can I say, do your own referendum and do EU justice, ie tear it apart. You may just as well do it to Belgium on level 2 while you are at it.

I would agree that regionalization and devolution is actually better than federalization as the "rulers" are closer to the people.

[Saras]

The whole process started as banks doing unsound risk management and giving Greek state the money. Not the people. Somehow this now became austere Europeans vs wasteful Greeks.

You can't "give" money to a state if you're a bank. You lend it. Via agreements. With the other party also signing off on it.

[dannubis]

What can I say, do your own referendum and do EU justice, ie tear it apart. You may just as well do it to Belgium on level 2 while you are at it.

I would agree that regionalization and devolution is actually better than federalization as the "rulers" are closer to the people.

You seem to have less problems with the greeks doing the same is all I can say.
Regarding Belgium: yes, let's...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

You can't "give" money to a state if you're a bank. You lend it. Via agreements. With the other party also signing off on it.

Sure, you lend it and then you take a hit when the entity you lent it to, because of your poor due diligence, goes bust.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Regarding Belgium: yes, let's...

[Saras]

Sure, you lend it and then you take a hit when the entity you lent it to, because of your poor due diligence, goes bust.

Yes, but what is your point? Most of the debt is anyway held by governments of EU and supranational institutions.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Yes, but what is your point? Most of the debt is anyway held by governments of EU and supranational institutions.

My point is that if you want to get a sick horse to run the race, you will fail. You need to get him in shape first, otherwise you will kill him.

There is this idea because Greece is a state it can be disintegrated completely on behalf of creditors who will then somehow get "paid", while in reality they will get nothing. Ie not much more than they did during last 5 years, or the great idea that with applying austerity you will get them to grow again. That has worked great, you only had 5 years to test the theory. Perhaps it works over 25 year period?

The problem is that you also have people there who are trying to live under the conditions imposed, they can still "in theory" govern themselves, but in really they will only be able to do so if they exit this super-duper entity which is testing those lovely ideas on them in order to get their loans paid back.

Guess what, they have had enough, only 60% of them apparently, but the people have spoken. It is a certainty that they can do better than what EU is proposing, but only if they are out of the union, they will finally regain all the mechanisms to reassert their governance. (edit: in theory this is also possible in the union, nothing technically preventing that, except the ideology of the EU bureaucrats) Also if they are smart enough, they may also be able to govern themselves better than they did in the past.

Either way, even if not - they will be out, have full governance, can finally go bust and restructure, which current powers that be are not so happy with.

[Saras]

My point is that if you want to get a sick horse to run the race, you will fail. You need to get him in shape first, otherwise you will kill him.

There is this idea because Greece is a state it can be disintegrated completely on behalf of creditors who will then somehow get "paid", while in reality they will get nothing. Ie not much more than they did during last 5 years, or the great idea that with applying austerity you will get them to grow again. That has worked great, you only had 5 years to test the theory. Perhaps it works over 25 year period?

The problem is that you also have people there who are trying to live under the conditions imposed, they can still "in theory" govern themselves, but in really they will only be able to do so if they exit this super-duper entity which is testing those lovely ideas on them in order to get their loans paid back.

Guess what, they have had enough, only 60% of them apparently, but the people have spoken. It is a certainty that they can do better than what EU is proposing, but only if they are out of the union, they will finally regain all the mechanisms to reassert their governance. (edit: in theory this is also possible in the union, nothing technically preventing that, except the ideology of the EU bureaucrats) Also if they are smart enough, they may also be able to govern themselves better than they did in the past.

Either way, even if not - they will be out, have full governance, can finally go bust and restructure, which current powers that be are not so happy with.

Good luck restructuring without a functioning banking sector.

[Proteus_MST]

Well that is Europe's problem. If we really are a union, you should be willing to support the Greeks as much as you are willing to support "home". Imagine if Flanders was saying that they are paying too much tax into the treasury and it is being spent to support Wallonia. How would that end?

Oh wait!?!

You may say that it is not the "same", but given the currency union this should also be a part of the bargain. Which the west clearly points out that "it is not", so really the Greeks can either take the scorched earth policies of central EU bureaucrats like you, and all move out physically to Germany.

Or on the other hand stay in Greece and move out of the EU as a country.
...

I´d assume that the belgian state has more control about its regions, than the EU has on Greece ... which IMHO is the big problem.

Which IMHO is a problem.

I understand, that Syriza only are in power in greece since 6 months and therefore weren´t able to work miracles after the gross mismanagement that took place during the previous greek governments.
The big problem however IMHO is, that the current greece government doesn´t even present any long term plans of their own on how to combat the problems of the greek state. I am sure that, if Varoufakis (when he still was minister) had come to the gatherings with any sound (and halfway detailed) plans for the nex years (ideally with prognostics about the development of income/expenses during this time) instead of coming with empty hands and just calling his colleagues terrorists, he (and his government) would have been taken more seriously.

At the moment there are no indications that the Syriza-Government will fare better with regards to greece economy than the greece governments before ... and therefore money spent into greece might be swallowed as well in this black hole. Therefore, demanding that the Syriza-Government presents plans for the future IMHO is the least, the EU can demand, before putting more money into greece

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Iceland did it spectacularly well, Argentina managed OK (much better than Greece did in EU, 5 years out), I am looking forward to see how Greeks manage it.