Staggering numbers on Syria..

[Aeson]

i am not prepared to educate you and then explain why you are wrong, so i will simply say that you are wrong and suggest that you address your knowledge deficiency in this area.

If I am wrong it should be easy for you to refute specific claims I made. Instead you are running away with your tail between your legs ...

[Aeson]

Here's the thread on Apolyton: http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/7...place-on-Earth

[kentonio]

It's been lost from the Poly archives, but CFC appears to have a copy still.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=46386

It's still here, I read it yesterday. I just searched for 'Historical Filth'.

[C0ckney]

If I am wrong it should be easy for you to refute specific claims I made. Instead you are running away with your tail between your legs ...

it's a question of effort. you have made a number of claims based on your ignorance, which is very easy and demands next to no effort; any idiot can make things up. but to refute them requires me to teach you the history of paraguay, which i am not prepared to do. do you own research.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Lee Kuan Yew, what a bastard! Discuss...

[C0ckney]

Which is why dictators are such horrible influences on the region. (And to be fair, any region.) People will throw off oppression and ideologically align themselves against them. We shouldn't ever support the oppressors. Otherwise we are forcing people away from our ideology. (Which if it wasn't for the propensity to support oppression for "other people", would be a much better thing than it currently is.)

i have merely pointed out the obvious truth that sometimes a dictator is better than the alternatives available and provided some examples. i have not argued, in this thread or elsewhere for providing actual support to any dictator, but rather that we should refrain, or should have refrained, from taking action that removes them. for some reason you insist on conflating the two things.

You are just very short-sighted. What Egypt needs is a government that will promote individual freedoms. They certainlly didn't have that with Mubarak, and Morsi proved he wasn't going to allow it. Egyptians need to keep kicking out anyone who gets in the way. If Sisi tries the same thing he should be kicked out too. Because if Egypt just settles for a despot ... that's all they will ever have.

as you have spent many words arguing against dictatorship i presume that you don't believe that 'personal freedoms' can be delivered by one; in other words, you mean that egypt needs a democracy. yet when the muslim brotherhood won a democratic election you were happy to see them removed in a military coup. as i said, your view is bizarre.

[Aeson]

I don't have to make anything up. It's easy enough to find a source to support each of the claims/references I made.

Which of these things that I referenced are you disputing?

a) "Francia chose to be a dictator:
b) "create a police state"
c) "execute dissidents"
d) "remove personal freedoms"
e) "limited higher education"
f) [confiscated property of foreigners]
g) [imprisoned foreigners]

[Aeson]

i have merely pointed out the obvious truth that sometimes a dictator is better than the alternatives available and provided some examples. i have not argued, in this thread or elsewhere for providing actual support to any dictator, but rather that we should refrain, or should have refrained, from taking action that removes them. for some reason you insist on conflating the two things.

You are misunderstanding what I am getting at. I haven't claimed anywhere that you support supporting dictators. Though you certainly do seem to want to suck some of their cocks (especially the socialist ones).

I have said that the Egyptians (and Libyans and any group of people) shouldn't accept a dictator ... it is always a good thing to throw them off. Yes, at times there will be steps back, but the only way to get to a better government is to keep throwing off the oppressors.

as you have spent many words arguing against dictatorship i presume that you don't believe that 'personal freedoms' can be delivered by one; in other words, you mean that egypt needs a democracy. yet when the muslim brotherhood won a democratic election you were happy to see them removed in a military coup. as i said, your view is bizarre.

My logic is consistent. I supported the Muslim Brotherhood's right to participate in the elections, even though I don't agree with their views in most cases. But after Morsi won the election, he eventually took steps to give himself dictatorial powers. At that point the Egyptian people were right to kick him out. You can't just win an election and then proclaim yourself above the law.

As long as the Egyptian people aren't willing to accept a dictator, they will eventually get a government that's worth having.

[C0ckney]

i am referring to - and to be honest mocking - the statements you made about paraguay that betray your lack of knowledge. the risible comparison made to the situation in the USA, the guff about right choices and the complete refusal (again for want of knowledge) to consider and compare the pre-franica and post-francia situations.

[I AM MOBIUS]

Also, directed at Kent, Aeson etc:

Just how long should these states take to 'correct' themselves and rise up phoenix-like from the ashes of mass ethnic cleansings/genocides/destruction etc? In Iraq and Syria, ancient Christian communities who have existed there in relative peace since biblical times are literally being extinguised before our very eyes!

Afghanistan: 37 years and counting

Somalia: 24 years and counting

Iraq: 12 years and counting

What is the alternative, you guys? Especially considering that your governments are quite happy to support countless dictatorships/autocrats and strongmen around the world now and before when it suited them. Quite happy to topple loads of democracies when the people have voted for the wrong people etc...

By your reckoning, people like Lee Kuan Yew are public enemy number one, whereas Hugo Chavez should have been lauded as a true hero of the people...

Not to mention that apparently Turkey should be allowed to descend into an Islamist state for similar reasons, as the democratically elected government erodes all the secular checks and balances put in place by the autocratic Ataturk.

Sometimes the least worst alternative is the best alternative. It doesn't mean it's palatable, it's just the way it is.

Next you'll be saying that you support the democratically elected Hamas...

[Aeson]

i am referring to - and to be honest mocking - the statements you made about paraguay that betray your lack of knowledge. the risible comparison made to the situation in the USA, the guff about right choices and the complete refusal (again for want of knowledge) to consider and compare the pre-franica and post-francia situations.

You still haven't made one substantive argument. I'll take that as an acceptance on your part that every substantive argument I've made is one you can't counter.

a) "Francia chose to be a dictator:
b) "create a police state"
c) "execute dissidents"
d) "remove personal freedoms"
e) "limited higher education"
f) [confiscated property of foreigners]
g) [imprisoned foreigners]

[I AM MOBIUS]

Hey I know, grant asylum to everyone who wants to leave their country until it's all over!

I'm sure the west won't million 'temporarily' housing tens of millions of refugees...

[I AM MOBIUS]

You are misunderstanding what I am getting at. I haven't claimed anywhere that you support supporting dictators. Though you certainly do seem to want to suck some of their cocks (especially the socialist ones).

I have said that the Egyptians (and Libyans and any group of people) shouldn't accept a dictator ... it is always a good thing to throw them off. Yes, at times there will be steps back, but the only way to get to a better government is to keep throwing off the oppressors.



My logic is consistent. I supported the Muslim Brotherhood's right to participate in the elections, even though I don't agree with their views in most cases. But after Morsi won the election, he eventually took steps to give himself dictatorial powers. At that point the Egyptian people were right to kick him out. You can't just win an election and then proclaim yourself above the law.

As long as the Egyptian people aren't willing to accept a dictator, they will eventually get a government that's worth having.

It wasn't the Egyptian people, it was the army. You are saying you supported an undemocratic coup - because it certain wasn't a revolution that kicked Morsi out.

Be consistent!

[C0ckney]

though i suppose the guff about right choices is more of a problem of world view. this silly idea that we are completely free to choose as we will and do as we feel. it's completely illusory yet surprisingly persistent. the range of choices we have and those we make are shaped by the particular historical, economic, social and political circumstances in which we find ourselves; we are all constrained in various ways by diverse forces, most of which are beyond our control, and this is as true for leaders of men as it is for everyone else.

[C0ckney]

You still haven't made one substantive argument.

please learn to read. i explained my view on paraguay in post 70.