Men's Rights Advocates! Come out and plaaaaaayyyyy

[iHateFatPeople]

They're still hitting on a nugget of truth there, which is that women don't necessarily consider "niceness" more important than whatever the serial domestic abuser has got--probably a combination of physical attractiveness and confidence.

As to your point about standards, I think it's spot on. My favorite high school math teacher had two fantastic and universal pieces of relationship advice: 1. Lower your standards. 2. If you want a girlfriend, get a dog.

Your math teacher had sex with dogs?

[MRT144]

They're still hitting on a nugget of truth there, which is that women don't necessarily consider "niceness" more important than whatever the serial domestic abuser has got--probably a combination of physical attractiveness and confidence.

As to your point about standards, I think it's spot on. My favorite high school math teacher had two fantastic and universal pieces of relationship advice: 1. Lower your standards. 2. If you want a girlfriend, get a dog.

Theres more to relationships and attraction than that - does this person make me feel good about myself when I'm around them is the basest question to answer. And I'm sure that at some point there was a time when an abuser made an abusee feel that way. People who are divorced had that at one point. A lot of people stay in relationships where that's true only some of the time. Point is self confidence and physical appearance are merely the basis of inherent attraction, and even more likely awareness by the other person. Awareness is huge and sharing things you enjoy with another person made it a lot easier for me (I met my wife at work chatting about TNG, then going out for drinks after a work party, ive met plenty of other girls when I was dating through dumb luck of being in the right place at the right time).

I could talk about this all day long but long story short - being interesting to yourself is not enough, and most people who whine about this kinda **** aren't willing to actually engage in a relationship where they are a partner - they want a very one sided relationships by and large. I know this because I was once a 15 year old boy but then I grew up.

I've also become very introspective as of late and as lame as it seems, desire, not in itself, but unquestioning desire for whatever it is you desire leads you bad places. And in some of these cases I don't think these "nice guys" are really thinking very hard about what they want and why they want it. Because in most cases I'm sure that it's either attainable or its a stupid desire.

[MRT144]

Oh, to add, I've been thinking about the whole "nice guy"/"friendzone" thing for a few weeks now, because while the term "friendzone" has been around for at least 20 years (when it was used to describe Ross and Rachel on Friends), it's only recently that it's gotten the whole neckbeard/nerd stigma thing associated with it.

And long before it became a big internet meme, I'd seen lots of independent observations about the phenomenon in a number of places. Like this very old and top 10 quote on bash.org. Or this xkcd strip from 2008. Or the third episode of Scrubs which aired in 2001 (I just binge-watched that series recently). Or if we want to go way back, the relationship between Gilbert and Anne in the Anne of Green Gables books, which were written about 100 years ago. By a woman.

In short, I don't think the complaints about "friendzone"/"nice guy" stuff are restricted to pasty nerds with unrealistic expectations of dating supermodels. It's older than the hills and there's at least a bit of truth to it.

edit: related to the xkcd thing, Randall Munroe appears to have waffled on this front, or perhaps his perspective has changed now that he's married.

Yeah, it's been around for about as long as women were at least somewhat liberated to be able to choose who they'd like to date and dare to have preferences...

But the thing that all of a sudden makes it insufferable is that it's on blast 24/7 and stunning obliviousness is expressed with seething vitriol. The only people consoling these people who can't have what they want are other people who can't have what they want. That and refusing to see the complexities of relationships and using a fallacious schema of relationship dynamics to generalize all people and all relationships.

Al B Sure and Kidicious respectively represent simplifying and generalizing themselves into unhappiness.

[iHateFatPeople]

What is the "friend zone"? Being friends with someone you want to have sex with but who doesn't want to have sex with you? If this is a problem doesn't that imply that you're only willing to be friends with members of the opposite sex if you think it will lead to sex? Do gay men ever complain about being in the "friend zone" with other men?

[rah]

If this is a problem doesn't that imply that you're only willing to be friends with members of the opposite sex if you think it will lead to sex?

No

[Imran Siddiqui]

edit: related to the xkcd thing, Randall Munroe appears to have waffled on this front, or perhaps his perspective has changed now that he's married.

I don't actually think the two xkcd cartoons are saying different things. In the 2008 one, he isn't saying that the "friend" is in the right.

[Sava]

it's only recently that it's gotten the whole neckbeard/nerd stigma thing associated with it.

well uhmm the whole neckbeard/nerd meme has only recently become a thing... relatively speaking

[N35t0r]

I always laugh about friendzone posts. If you are there, it's because you want to be there. End of story.

[Sava]

I always laugh about friendzone posts. If you are there, it's because you want to be there. End of story.

or did something to put yourself there

nobody is entitled to sex

if someone decides they never want to have sex with you, it's your own fault

[Imran Siddiqui]

What if I'm Indian (South Asian, not American) and the other person is racist? Is it my fault NOW?!

I always knew you were a fan of racists!

[Sava]

What if I'm Indian (South Asian, not American) and the other person is racist? Is it my fault NOW?!

I always knew you were a fan of racists!

hmmm

I'd probably blame your parents

[Imran Siddiqui]

Colonialism apologist

[MRT144]

I'm imagining Imran outside a KKK meeting holding a boombox ala Say Anything

[Imran Siddiqui]

Playing "Black or White"?

[regexcellent]

I don't actually think the two xkcd cartoons are saying different things. In the 2008 one, he isn't saying that the "friend" is in the right.

Yeah, on rereading you're right.

or did something to put yourself there

nobody is entitled to sex

if someone decides they never want to have sex with you, it's your own fault

The idea I think is of being entitled to be doing at least as well as the serial abuser guy. Which leads some people to believe in some cargo cult thing where being an ******* is the key to succeeding with women because they see that *******s in their own lives who are, in fact, successful with women.

Also, I think you're focusing too much on the sex part. If you really just want sex then you could always hire a prostitute, but the dateless "nice guys" aren't doing that.