Fun! Frolic! Fratricide!

[Elok]

So, Laz has finally reached that age. That age when a young man's thoughts turn to hurting his little brother. He will, on occasion, voice thoughts such as "we should drill holes in Malcolm with a corkscrew," or "we should cut Malcolm's head off." These thoughts typically get him sent to the corner, which does not much trouble him greatly no matter how long he stays. I'm not too troubled by it, myself, albeit it is wicked creepy. What bothers me more is when he starts acting on his notions, e.g. by kicking Mac as he crawls, or biting his hand.

Not sure what to do about it, but it needs to stop, fast, before he gets old enough to start doing this secretly. His mind is not really advanced enough to understand complex reasoning or complicated punishments, so he needs some kind of immediate disincentive. Spanking comes to mind--for hurting his brother, and only for hurting his brother--but I'm very, very reluctant to start that, because it's supposed to mess your kids up something fierce. In general, Laz's misbehavior seems to grow in proportion to his mother's stress level, and this is no doubt part of that. But it's hard not to stress out when you've got little Cain and Abel. In most respects, Laz behaves better than other kids his age that we've observed.

(yes, I have sunk to asking Poly for parenting advice. But some of you guys are parents!)

[KrazyHorse]

When my kid does bad stuff I yell at him until he cries. It seems to have reduced the frequency at which he smacks people.

[Jon Miller]

We breastfeed her or have daddy hold her.

JM
(Her misbehaviour (including hitting) is mostly towards mommy because mommy won't get up or breastfeed her or let her sleep on mommies head.)

[FlameFlash]

I feel for you Elok but sadly have no good advice as the majority of my kids are girls and naturally are all cuddly and cartakery toward the baby (who is one.)

How does the crawler act toward the elder? I see the bond between each and the baby and the smile she rewards them with randomly... and realize she's most certainly going to be spoiled.

[N35t0r]

My little brother used to bite all the time, when he was really small (I'm three years older than him, so I don't really remember much, this is mostly as told by my mother), and no amount of scolding made him stop. eventually, out pediatrician advised my mother that, the next time my brother bit her, to bite him back. That made him stop.

How old is Laz?

[Sava]

We breastfeed her or have daddy hold her.

JM
(Her misbehaviour (including hitting) is mostly towards mommy because mommy won't get up or breastfeed her or let her sleep on mommies head.)

How old?

seems like weening is in order


but then again, that is a very personal decision, I'm certainly not judging or anything

[Jon Miller]

How old?

seems like weening is in order


but then again, that is a very personal decision, I'm certainly not judging or anything

About 16 months (a bit younger than KH's child, I believe). We have threatened to ween a number of times and even started it once. My wife has started it again yesterday I think.

My personal opinion is that you should breastfeed if at all possible until ~1 year and then stop sometime before ~2 years.

JM
(The molars started in ~2 days ago and she has been eating things like chicken curry and rice for months (September).)

[Sava]

About 16 months (a bit younger than KH's child, I believe). We have threatened to ween a number of times and even started it once. My wife has started it again yesterday I think.

My personal opinion is that you should breastfeed if at all possible until ~1 year and then stop sometime before ~2 years.

JM
(The molars started in ~2 days ago and she has been eating things like chicken curry and rice for months (September).)

Ah. Okay. 16 months isn't terrible.

Agree with you on when to ween.

My oldest nephew is 2 years and 3 months. It's starting to get a bit weird, IMO. But god forbid I (or my mom) say anything to my sister.

Though, if he hits 3 and still does it, we're gonna start giving her **** about it.

[Hauldren Collider]

Is spanking really bad for kids? Kinda skeptical.

[Jon Miller]

There have been repeated studies that have shown it is, but in my opinion they are suspect due to the the bias of the field and the fact that the type of spanking (or physical punishment) is not considered.

However, while I am open to the idea of spanking I would not use it for Elok's case but rather would use it (or slap on the wrist or what have you) for toddler running into traffic or similar life endangering behaviour.

For Elok's case I think a lot of love, redirection and verbal discussion is all that is necessary. If he actually get's out a corkscrew it might be time for the spanking.

JM
(Note that I am a less experienced father than Elok, I wonder that none of the more experienced father's have given their 2 cents.)

[Hauldren Collider]

It's not even the physical aspect of the spanking that kids hate. It's the anticipation of pain that they can't stand.

I agree with you though wrt when to use physical vs verbal punishment.

[Jon Miller]

The studies are not that kids hate it, but rather that it is linked to increased violence and aggression of the kids in later life.

As I mentioned I am suspicious because the type of physical punishment is not considered (and the liberal bias of the field).

I personally was spanked a few times. I didn't enjoy it, but the far bigger impact on me was being yelled at (the memory still causes me to flinch).

JM
(by type I also include when it was applied)

[Hauldren Collider]

Yeah, I think spanking is far better than something that might cause the kid to have low self esteem/yelling or something. I mean depending on the yelling obviously. If it's like, "GET OFF THE ROOF YOU'RE GONNA DIE" or "NO DON'T PUT YOUR HAND ON THE BURNING HOT PAN" that's fine.

But what do I know I'm not a parent.

[Jon Miller]

I think that there are times when yelling or spanking can be appropriate. I am not even suggesting that my dad yelled inappropriately.

I just noted that yelling can have an impact too.

I think that it is all too complicated for simple commandments to work (in general, some such as make sure your kid has clothes and food and so on are obvious).

JM
(as is not beating your child)

[Sava]

wrt: spanking, my thoughts aren't based upon the studies... merely anecdotal and based on observation

IMO, I don't think spanking is good. Children, like adults, are people who can be manipulated using a variety of psychological techniques. I think, especially with regards to young children, that spanking is ineffective. At that age, they aren't capable of making rational decisions. Kids can also learn to deal with it. It becomes less effective, imo, the more you do it.

Personally, I think the application of spanking or corporal punishment is a form of sadism. I also think it is very ineffective compared to other techniques. There are some instances where I could conceive of lightly smacking one of my nephews if they did something to spark a reflexive response... like grabbing my junk or something. In that case, I don't think the physical contact is such a horrible thing. They'll learn that adults can also lose control... so don't do things that will provoke them.

Ideally, I would prefer to never hit a child. That should be the baseline norm as far as I'm concerned. I don't buy the cultural arguments that people try to make to justify spanking... slavery, institutionalize rape, etc... all were cultural norms at some point. That's no excuse.

If anything, I would employ the threat of violence as a means of controlling a child's behavior. I think that is much more effective than actual spanking. Fear is a powerful tool. If you do use spanking or corporal punishment, you constantly need to escalate in order to achieve the same effect. I say this as a guy who has gotten used to a lot of physical abuse... both as a child, young adult, and yeah... as an adult... but really only in the form of hockey as an adult. At this point, you could punch, kick, and beat me all day. It's nothing new. I'll just wait until you are finished.