So, just how useless are the European NATO members?

[Colonâ„¢]

Elok is a Yankee though. (Or are you from the more "southern" part of Maryland, Elok?)

In this context he clearly refers to the whole of the US since the south does not have a separate foreign policy anymore.

[Lonestar]

Can they actually replenish tomahawks at sea?

It's theoretically possible. It doesn't happen though. It's a huge pain in the ass to do so even in port, so the closest "at sea" is when there's a RRF vessel at a forward port somewhere that has it's own crane and does it.

The navy really wants to bring back tenders, although apparently we're just going to have a few modified LPDs that act as "LCS tenders" rather than destroyer tenders.

[Lonestar]

Subs are a much better tomahawk platform anyway.

Boooooooooo


I boo this man!

[kentonio]

ken: i have read your post a few times and i can't really work out what you are trying to say.

you recognise the problems of colonialism and the damage it did to those peoples, but you want to impose a solution on those same peoples from without; only this time with noble motives, because that makes all the difference!

you say you support interventions, but then go to list (some of) the reasons why they don't work.

you want democracy for all but then bemoan how attempts to impose it always turn out in reality.

etc.

It requires you to disconnect between what you want to happen and what is likely to be the most positive outcome long term. The most positive long term outcome for many middle eastern countries is probably for the dictatorships we supported to be removed via intervention and/or supported internal insurgencies/revolutions (in many cases already done) but for us to then walk away. Short term it'd almost inevitably lead to chaos and mass bloodshed but over time the state will likely result in something that fits the actual needs of the people. Instead we end up trying to prevent the violence and in the process interfering with both the governmental structures that get built and the wishes of the people who actually live there. Long term divisions continue, and a lower level violence burns for decades. In the meanwhile the west is (rightly) blamed for their interference and the anti-west hatred continues.

It might sound cold but I think sometimes the outcome has to come locally. If we can help prevent violence then great, but if the cost of that is that the future direction of the country and the self determination of its people is compromised, then that price isn't worth paying. All we end up doing is pushing the problem down the road hoping that it'll resolve itself in the future. Which basically never happens. We also need to start recognizing that if the government type the people want is one that doesn't suit us, then that's tough ****. If the people of the ME want theocracies of some form, then that's their business. Long term we're likely to get much better foreign policy outcomes by just letting these states form and mature and dealing with them fairly. Unless they actively aggress against us then it really is not our place to try and act against them or try to control them.

[kentonio]

The same logic that has taken us into two World Wars with serious deficiencies. Had we spent more in peacetime, perhaps we wouldn't have had to sell the family china at bargain basement prices when the **** hit the fan.

There is logic to the saying "Those who love peace should prepare for war" and I am concerned that there isn't sufficient preparation for conflict with Russia and an over-reliance on American intervention. A future US President and/or Congress may not be willing to risk a nuclear war for the sake of mainland Europe and ultimately why should Europeans ask them to?

I'm not anti-defence spending, I just stand against dropping social services to provide it. I shouldn't have put that bit about 'that we don't need' it was flippant, and mostly aimed in the direction of the vastly oversized US military spending rather than our own.

[regexcellent]

It's fascinating how there are some people who still wring their hands about colonialism. It's a phenomenon that in the real world I've never encountered outside of academia. And it tends to be associated with a hilariously retarded relativist worldview.

Basically, uggh who the **** cares about colonialism stop navel gazing it's ****ing boring.

[Bereta_Eder]

Oh it still goes on big time.
For example a gold mine, in Ghana sells its gold to holland (or france? I forget which).
Ghana people keep 9 dollars out of every 100 dollars that go to the european country.
It still goes on. And it pays huge to keep people uneducated and divided.
Pays up huge

[kentonio]

It's fascinating how there are some people who still wring their hands about colonialism. It's a phenomenon that in the real world I've never encountered outside of academia. And it tends to be associated with a hilariously retarded relativist worldview.

Basically, uggh who the **** cares about colonialism stop navel gazing it's ****ing boring.

You know who cares about colonialism? Peeople in countries that used to be colonies who are still suffering from the after effects of the governments we installed to oppress them. It matters to us because when those people hate us occasionally they do things like fly packed airliners into skyscrapers and set off bombs in the middle of our cities. If it bores you then remember not to whine next time a few thousand Americans get vaporized.

[Felch]

You know who cares about colonialism? Peeople in countries that used to be colonies who are still suffering from the after effects of the governments we installed to oppress them.

My country used to be a colony. The only effects we feel here from your oppression are a popular preference for coffee over tea.

[Sava]

It's fascinating how there are some people who still wring their hands about colonialism. It's a phenomenon that in the real world I've never encountered outside of academia. And it tends to be associated with a hilariously retarded relativist worldview.

Basically, uggh who the **** cares about colonialism stop navel gazing it's ****ing boring.

Maybe politics just isn't your thing. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

[Hauldren Collider]

You know who cares about colonialism? Peeople in countries that used to be colonies who are still suffering from the after effects of the governments we installed to oppress them. It matters to us because when those people hate us occasionally they do things like fly packed airliners into skyscrapers and set off bombs in the middle of our cities. If it bores you then remember not to whine next time a few thousand Americans get vaporized.

Why didn't they fly those airliners into the Kremlin then? Afghanistan had at that point been most recently "colonized" by the good ol' totally anti-imperialist USSR.

The last (really, only) place we arguably "colonized" was the Phillipines, and they like us.

[kentonio]

My country used to be a colony. The only effects we feel here from your oppression are a popular preference for coffee over tea.

That's because you had a revolution and were far enough away that we didn't get to influence the resultant government.

[kentonio]

Why didn't they fly those airliners into the Kremlin then? Afghanistan had at that point been most recently "colonized" by the good ol' totally anti-imperialist USSR.

Russia has been the target of many terrorist attacks over the years. Russia did not however prop up the house of Saud and a whole range of other oppressive regimes in the ME (Syria aside). You know the hijackers were Saudis not Afghans right?

[Hauldren Collider]

Yes, I knew that, but they had very close ties to the Taliban.

[kentonio]

Yes, I knew that, but they had very close ties to the Taliban.

Perhaps the people paying the bills believed that trying to get the US out of Saudia Arabia would benefit them more than some symbolic attack on a weak Russian Federation.