Euro Court of Human Rights loses its ****ing mind over Niqabs

[C0ckney]

that's the best argument for the ban: that the niqab is oppressive to women and that a liberal western society committed to gender equality shouldn't tolerate it.

i don't find it convincing (by which i mean that i think the niqab is oppressive to women, but i don't think a ban on wearing it is the answer), but it does raise the wider issue of women's rights in muslim communities and that deserves serious discussion.

[The Mad Monk]

I wonder what John Stuart Mill would say about this.

[Bereta_Eder]

In any case, I think it's good that different countries are free to follow whatever it feels right to them.

[Bereta_Eder]

I wonder what John Stuart Mill would say about this.

who?

[The Mad Monk]

Some guy I'm reading right now.

[regexcellent]

that's the best argument for the ban: that the niqab is oppressive to women and that a liberal western society committed to gender equality shouldn't tolerate it.

i don't find it convincing (by which i mean that i think the niqab is oppressive to women, but i don't think a ban on wearing it is the answer), but it does raise the wider issue of women's rights in muslim communities and that deserves serious discussion.

It's a dumb argument because if a woman chooses to wear a niqab that's her own damn business.

[C0ckney]

proponents of that argument would disagree, and question the nature of choice in this instance.

[regexcellent]

Trying to give people choices by taking them away is so quintessentially European.

[Al B. Sure!]

It should be obvious that, especially given the treatment of women otherwise among some stricter Muslim communities, that wearing a hijab might not be a matter of the woman's own volition. She may face very harsh consequences for a free refusal to wear a veil.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Then again, the ban is being contested by women who want to wear it of their own free will. It's another of those situations where it's far better to tackle the real problem- the coercion and repression- than set the precedent of outlawing garments, and in doing so chipping away at civil liberties for all.

[Al B. Sure!]

It was a response to regexcellent's simplicity

[C0ckney]

Then again, the ban is being contested by women who want to wear it of their own free will. It's another of those situations where it's far better to tackle the real problem- the coercion and repression- than set the precedent of outlawing garments, and in doing so chipping away at civil liberties for all.

exactly. those of us who don't like this measure nevertheless must accept that a real problem exists.

[Bereta_Eder]

Looking at the aesthetic angle of it, and that alone, I don't think I'd raise an eyebrow if there's some african guy dressed in his traditional long robe, or a muslim afgani with a beard to the floor.
There's something though about consealing the face that does strike me as unnatural.

I'd also imagine there are particular neighborhoods that face this problem and others who have no such apperances.

If taken to the extreme I'd imagine that going out without the niqab is something akeen to go out naked for people who foillow that custom.
On the other hand, wearing a niqab and seeing more and more women do it, is akeen to being effectively shut out of interpersonal relations the way you are used to.

Since there are indicency laws in place, meaning you can't go around walking the city naked or they'll bust you, is it really so terrible to have restrictive measures on the other end as well?
Why is the one being accepted and the other is deemed as repression?
Aren't there societal boundaries within which everyone lives his/her life?

Just thinking out loud, I don't have a clear opinion on this simply because I don't face it, in order to have a clear opinion.

[DaShi]

Looking at the aesthetic angle of it, and that alone, I don't think I'd raise an eyebrow if there's some african guy dressed in his traditional long robe, or a muslim afgani with a beard to the floor.

Even if it totally clashed with the Louvre?

[Bereta_Eder]

The whereabouts of the Louvre don't face such dilemas. They're plump