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Virginia court-appointed official refused to marry an atheist couple.

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  • Virginia court-appointed official refused to marry an atheist couple.

    No discrimination here; the public government employee was just exercising his "religious belief/freedom."

    Virginia atheist couple: Court-appointed officiant told us we had no right to get married
    By Travis Gettys
    Friday, May 30, 2014 13:14 EDT

    A court-appointed official in Virginia refused to perform a wedding ceremony for a couple because they don’t believe in God.

    Tamar Courtney and Morgan Strong planned to get this married after six years together, and they’d hoped a friend would be able to officiate, reported the Friendly Atheist blog.

    But that friend had trouble obtaining his license, so the couple turned to Franklin County – where a judge referred them to two court-appointed officiants.

    The first official they called, Bud Roth, said he would not perform the ceremony at the courthouse, although he didn’t specify why, but said he would marry them at his church.

    Although neither of them believes in God, the couple agreed to go through the legal portion of the ceremony at Roth’s church and then planned to celebrate later with friends and family.

    After they agreed on the cost, location, date, and time, Roth asked Courtney about their religious denomination.

    She admitted she was agnostic and Strong was an atheist, and she said Roth told them they didn’t have the right to marry because they “didn’t know where God was.”

    Strong was so incredulous he set up a recording and called Roth himself to ask why they’d been denied service.

    “Because she’s agnostic and you’re an atheist,” Roth said on the recording. “I will not marry you. You don’t believe in God.”

    He told Strong that was his decision but insisted he was not judging the couple.

    “I just don’t marry anyone who does not believe in God [or] believes that there is a God someplace,” Roth said. “So I’m not going to talk the issue over with you and I’m not going to argue about it, okay? I’m just not going to marry you. Correct?”

    He suggested Strong contact the other court-appointed officiant to see if he would perform the ceremony.

    The Franklin County clerk was speechless when Courtney called her about the issue, and she told the couple to write a letter to the judge who had appointed the officiants.

    The clerk told the Friendly Atheist that Judge William Alexander said he had appointed Roth to perform religious ceremonies in the county and the other officiant for civil ceremonies.

    She said the judge found no problem with Roth’s decision, and the clerk said she wasn’t sure whether the couple had asked courthouse staffers to direct them to a non-religious officiant.

    Strong and Courtney will be married Monday by the second officiant, and they plan to hold a formal ceremony June 29 with their loved ones.
    A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

  • #2
    Fire him. He said he is unwilling to do his job so clearly he needs to find a different job.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Dinner View Post
      Fire him. He said he is unwilling to do his job so clearly he needs to find a different job.
      I guess technically it was legal for the court-appointed official to refuse, because he was going to marry them at his church.
      A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Dinner View Post
        Fire him. He said he is unwilling to do his job so clearly he needs to find a different job.
        Why do you hate freedom? How dare you tell religious *******s not to waste other people's time.

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        • #5
          Then WTF is the court telling people they have to use the court appointed official if said official is unwilling to do the job? Clearly there are major problems in Virginia.
          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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          • #6
            My actual problem with this:

            The clerk told the Friendly Atheist that Judge William Alexander said he had appointed Roth to perform religious ceremonies in the county and the other officiant for civil ceremonies.


            By "religious ceremonies," the clerk means "Christian ceremonies." If that officiant is unwilling to officiate, say, Buddhist weddings, then Franklin county is clearly favoring one religion.
            Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
            "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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            • #7
              Actual article's answer: the official in question was specifically appointed to conduct religious ceremonies. You can argue First Amendment, but there's very little harm done in this case since (article also notes) they were able to get married by a different official with very little fuss beyond having their feelings hurt by the nasty minister telling them atheists generally shouldn't be involved in explicitly religious ceremonies. Tempest in a teapot, DIAW, etc., etc.

              Xpost; I imagine Lori's point could be an issue, should it ever come up. But not much of an issue.
              1011 1100
              Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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              • #8
                Also, while the article doesn't go into detail, it says he was "appointed," not hired or employed. I'd imagine he might get some sort of honorarium from the government for each service, but no more than his secular counterpart. It sounds like he's used to perform a specific function: people who want a wedding with a religious flavor, but don't belong to an actual church, or aren't in a position to get a church wedding and then the legal piece of paper to go with it (which is what I got).

                I imagine that, if some Buddhists wanted to get married in the same way, the government would hem and haw for a bit before digging around for a Buddhist official of the appropriate denomination, "appoint" him on the spot, then get on with it. Or, if they belonged to one of the less-clerical Buddhist groups, they could do the secular ceremony and add some improvised Buddhist props and flourishes. The guy's probably used to being somewhat flexible.

                But this is all guesswork; the article doesn't give enough info to be sure about any of it.
                1011 1100
                Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                • #9
                  I agree that this isn't exactly a big deal, but to me it's all the more reason why the state should divorce itself from the concept of religious marriage. Btw, I can't figure out what DIAW is supposed to mean.
                  Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                  "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                  • #10
                    OK, basically the way getting married in Virginia is supposed to work is that you go to the courthouse, get a license and then find either a civil office to perform a civil ceremony or go to a priest/pastor/minister/rabbi or whatever to perform a religious ceremony. Courts do not apoint a minister to perform religious marriages, to do so would surely be a violation of the United States Constitution. I assure you that Franklin County has more than one church. The judge is discriminating against every other church in the county.
                    OTOH we don't know whether the couple specifically asked for a civil ceremony, which they should have.
                    "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                    • #11
                      The part where he insisted on doing it in a church should probably have tipped them off, before they went into detail about time and date and cost.

                      Originally posted by Lorizael View Post
                      I agree that this isn't exactly a big deal, but to me it's all the more reason why the state should divorce itself from the concept of religious marriage. Btw, I can't figure out what DIAW is supposed to mean.
                      Dinner Is Always Wrong. It's something of a catchphrase, though I don't generally use it. He just happened to be getting in an uproar over very little in this particular thread.

                      Honestly, I think this is kind of silly, too; if you actually believe in your religion, you should have a pre-existing relationship with a pastor/minister/rabbi/priest/imam/whatever, and he/she/it can do it. If you don't believe enough to actually know a religious official, why the hell do you want a religious wedding? But if they want artificial Jesus flavor, I'm comfortable with it being available. No skin off my back. In any case, they wasted this guy's time as much as he wasted theirs, unless you think he secretly knew they weren't religious and was deliberately dragging them along to be a dick. It was a misunderstanding, and in the future Franklin county, wherever that is, should clearly indicate their church option at the time they offer it, and everything will be fine.
                      1011 1100
                      Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                      • #12
                        Ah, I see. You misspelled Oerdin.
                        Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                        "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                        • #13
                          blahblah religion throw rocks at them
                          To us, it is the BEAST.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lorizael View Post
                            Ah, I see. You misspelled Oerdin.
                            I've seen DIAW a number of times.
                            1011 1100
                            Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                            • #15
                              The marriage is doomed to fail when the atheist and agnostic have irreconcilable religious differences. "I believe that there is no God." "I only mostly believe that there is no God." "Heretic!" "Blasphemer!"
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