Woman Who Can't Afford Her Own Birth Control Scrapes Up Money For Congressional Run

[Ban Kenobi]

Idealists would be the sort of people who fought the french revolution. Didn't turn out that great for them.

Thomas Jefferson wasn't an idealist...?

[molly bloom]

Mindless contrarianism.

That's your creed I believe.

And no, I'm not defending George III- what a ludicrous suggestion.

[Hauldren Collider]

Thomas Jefferson wasn't an idealist...?

Not once he took office.

[Ban Kenobi]

Not once he took office.

So the French were "idealists" because they killed a bunch of perceived enemies? And Thomas Jefferson wasn't because... he bought land from the French?

[Kidlicious]

Thomas Jefferson wasn't an idealist...?

Certainly not.

[molly bloom]

So the French were "idealists" because they killed a bunch of perceived enemies? And Thomas Jefferson wasn't because... he bought land from the French?

Apparently in the American Revolution no one who opposed the revolution was killed. This is going to be surprising news to historians.

In any case it was hardly a feat of international diplomacy to persuade the French or Spanish (and later the Dutch) to side with the colonies- the French had been the main enemy of the British throughout the 18th Century and the Seven Years' War was their last major defeat at British hands. The Spanish wanted Gibraltar back and the French wanted sugar islands in the Caribbean.

As for ideals, by the 1780s over 1 500 publications had appeared in the North American colonies expounding these ideals and arguments. Inalienable rights and social contracts, to mention but two.

[Kidlicious]

Apparently in the American Revolution no one who opposed the revolution was killed. This is going to be surprising news to historians.

In any case it was hardly a feat of international diplomacy to persuade the French or Spanish (and later the Dutch) to side with the colonies- the French had been the main enemy of the British throughout the 18th Century and the Seven Years' War was their last major defeat at British hands. The Spanish wanted Gibraltar back and the French wanted sugar islands in the Caribbean.

As for ideals, by the 1780s over 1 500 publications had appeared in the North American colonies expounding these ideals and arguments. Inalienable rights and social contracts, to mention but two.

Until 1787 with the Constitution.

[Felch]

In any case it was hardly a feat of international diplomacy to persuade the French or Spanish (and later the Dutch) to side with the colonies- the French had been the main enemy of the British throughout the 18th Century and the Seven Years' War was their last major defeat at British hands. The Spanish wanted Gibraltar back and the French wanted sugar islands in the Caribbean.

The French basically went bankrupt supporting us. Nobody would have been impressed if Franklin and co. came back from France with kinds words and empty gestures, but they came back with cash, guns, and a huge French fleet and army. The French spent 1.3 billion livres on the war. 740 livres were set to 8 oz. of gold, which puts a livre at a little over 14 dollars today. 18 billion dollars is a substantial sum for a modern economy. In 1780s France it led in a few years to the collapse of the state. Benjamin Franklin didn't just talk the French into serving their own interests; he talked the kingdom into suicide.

[DinoDoc]

he talked the kingdom into suicide.

France's attitude vs the UK:

[Hauldren Collider]

In any case it was hardly a feat of international diplomacy to persuade the French or Spanish (and later the Dutch) to side with the colonies

[molly bloom]

If that's the best you've got, why bother ?

I can't help but think you must have been a very petty little boy, because you're even more petty now.

France had lost territories as a result of defeat in the Seven Years' War- a chance to take sugar producing islands from the British or regain a foothold in India was always welcome. Equally, Spain had had to give up Gibraltar.

You have only to look at what Spain and France took from the British during the American War of Independence and what they eventually settled for in treating with the British.

But then look who I'm addressing.