Oops, turns out Arafat probably was murdered after all..

[Sava]

Gillette.

The best a man can get?

[kentonio]

Israel knocking off bad guys

I honestly don't see a problem with any of the things cockney described.

Like the innocent Moroccan they murdered in Lillehammer by mistake?

I actually struggle with this stuff a lot. On one hand getting payback on the bastards who carried out Munich and other atrocities seems right and just, but state sponsored assassination is a dirty, filthy business and it can go wrong extremely easily. It can also have terrible repercussions even when it is carried out as planned.

[Hauldren Collider]

Like the innocent Moroccan they murdered in Lillehammer by mistake?

I actually struggle with this stuff a lot. On one hand getting payback on the bastards who carried out Munich and other atrocities seems right and just, but state sponsored assassination is a dirty, filthy business and it can go wrong extremely easily. It can also have terrible repercussions even when it is carried out as planned.

As I mentioned earlier, the lillehammer thing was a major **** up and if they're gonna go around killing bad guys, they have to actually be bad guys. But when they do things like grab Nazis from Argentina, I'm not upset, and people who cry about **** like "national sovereignty" are usually and probably just doing so out of their closet antisemitism. Anyone who understands a thing about what the people Israel kills did would immediately realize that the world is a better place with them gone.

[MikeH]

Like the innocent Moroccan they murdered in Lillehammer by mistake?

I actually struggle with this stuff a lot. On one hand getting payback on the bastards who carried out Munich and other atrocities seems right and just, but state sponsored assassination is a dirty, filthy business and it can go wrong extremely easily. It can also have terrible repercussions even when it is carried out as planned.

No, it's quite simple. The bad guys are murderers. We, the alleged good guys, have the legal system and the rule of law to guide us.

Yes the reality is that this does make it much harder for us to punish the bad guys, and it means that bad people will get away with stuff and probably do it again. That is the cost of protecting the freedoms of the people who live in our countries is that we uphold those freedoms and require a high standard of proof to punish the guilty.

The Rule of Law.

It's tempting to want to murder the bad guys, but then we really are as bad as them.

[MikeH]

if they're gonna go around killing bad guys, they have to actually be bad guys.

And how do you prove this without a proper trial?

You have to give the defendant the right to put their side of the story, or the system is too open to abuse and mistakes.

Look how many mistakes are made even with the checks and balances of a trial system.

[Sava]

people who cry about **** like "national sovereignty" are usually and probably just doing so out of their closet antisemitism.

I wonder if right wingers in Israel play the "anti-semite" card against the lefties in Israel.

It's tired. Don't do it. It's just as bad as when someone plays the race card incorrectly.

Doing so also makes it more difficult to call out legitimate anti-semites.

[Hauldren Collider]

I'm pretty sure Israel would have to go further than assassinations to be worse than the PLO or the Nazis...

[kentonio]

No, it's quite simple. The bad guys are murderers. We, the alleged good guys, have the legal system and the rule of law to guide us.

Yes the reality is that this does make it much harder for us to punish the bad guys, and it means that bad people will get away with stuff and probably do it again. That is the cost of protecting the freedoms of the people who live in our countries is that we uphold those freedoms and require a high standard of proof to punish the guilty.

The Rule of Law.

It's tempting to want to murder the bad guys, but then we really are as bad as them.

Indeed. I tend to have a lot more sympathy for it when they do it in countries that they know would have obstructed justice, but it's still fundamentally wrong to deny anyone the right to a defense.

[kentonio]

I wonder if right wingers in Israel play the "anti-semite" card against the lefties in Israel.

It's tired. Don't do it. It's just as bad as when someone plays the race card incorrectly.

Doing so also makes it more difficult to call out legitimate anti-semites.

Yeah this.

[MikeH]

Totally.

[C0ckney]

I honestly don't see a problem with any of the things cockney described.

that doesn't surprise me.

[Sava]

With regards to assassinations and other spyee things... I tend to follow the Jack Bauer rule.

Do what you gotta do... but if you **** up, you gotta face the music.

[Hauldren Collider]

With regards to assassinations and other spyee things... I tend to follow the Jack Bauer rule.

Do what you gotta do... but if you **** up, you gotta face the music.

Here's another example where israel "infringed on national sovereignty": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entebbe_raid

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW?

[Imran Siddiqui]

people who cry about **** like "national sovereignty" are usually and probably just doing so out of their closet antisemitism

Anyone find the irony in folks that carp about "national sovereignty" doesn't mean anything are usually the ones who advocate for "states rights" in the US?

I mean, I guess its easy to change it around - people who cry about **** like "states rights" are usually and probably just doing so out of their closet racism. Best to follow what Sava says on claiming anti-semitism and race card and at the same token realize that borders do matter for some reason (whether nations or states).

No, it's quite simple. The bad guys are murderers. We, the alleged good guys, have the legal system and the rule of law to guide us.

Yes the reality is that this does make it much harder for us to punish the bad guys, and it means that bad people will get away with stuff and probably do it again. That is the cost of protecting the freedoms of the people who live in our countries is that we uphold those freedoms and require a high standard of proof to punish the guilty.

The Rule of Law.

It's tempting to want to murder the bad guys, but then we really are as bad as them.

A million 's

[MikeH]

I hope no-one here is ever collateral damage in a botched assassination, but if you are, I'm glad you'll be comforted by the fact that whoever did it might get a bollocking.