Should the Republican Party Bow Out of 2016?

[Ben Kenobi]

Jeez Louise, its like some people have never heard of the Naturalization Act of 1790 (passed by the same folks who were among the founders, mind):

"the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens"

This makes them Naturalized citizens, same as anyone born abroad who comes to the US and gains citizenship.

[DaShi]

Trying to explain how the US Constitution works to Ben is a waste of time.

Trying to explain anything to him is a waste of time.

[giblets]

The Constitution does not define the phrase natural-born citizen, and various opinions have been offered over time regarding its precise meaning. A 2011 Congressional Research Service report stated that

The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term "natural born" citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship "by birth" or "at birth", either by being born "in" the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship "at birth". Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an "alien" required to go through the legal process of "naturalization" to become a U.S. citizen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

If Ted Cruise ever gets nominated it'll be funny to watch Ben ramble on about how he knows what "natural-born citizen" really means while the entire United States ignores him and proceeds to elect Hillary.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jeez Louise, its like some people have never heard of the Naturalization Act of 1790 (passed by the same folks who were among the founders, mind):

"the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens"

[Ben Kenobi]

The use of the phrase in the Constitution may have derived from a suggestion in a letter from John Jay to George Washington
during the Convention expressing concern about having the office of Commander-in-Chief
“devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen,” as there were fears at that time about wealthy
European aristocracy or royalty coming to America, gaining citizenship, and then buying and
scheming their way to the presidency without long-standing loyalty to the nation.

This is exactly the concern of the founding fathers and why the NBC requirement requires that one be born in the United States. This is a status that cannot be bought, sold and exchanged.

Under the common law principle of jus soli (law of the
soil), persons born on English soil, even of two alien parents, were “natural born” subjects and, as
noted by the Supreme Court, this “same rule” was applicable in the American colonies and “in the
United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution ...”

This is important. You have no idea the endless frustration I had arguing that Jus Soli applies to all born in the US, without exception.

it is understood that terms used but not defined in the
document must, as explained by the Supreme Court, “be read in light of British common law”
since the Constitution is “framed in the language of the English common law.”

Why again does Ben Kenobi keep talking about English Common Law? This is why.

From historical material and case law, it appears that the common understanding of the
term “natural born” in England and in the American colonies in the 1700s may have included
both the strict common law meaning as born in the territory (jus soli), as well as the statutory
laws adopted in England since at least 1350, which included children born abroad to British
fathers (jus sanguinis, the law of descent).

Key word here, 'MAY'. There is no evidence and the Jay letter is substantial evidence to the contrary that the Founders did not consider 'natural born' to apply to those born abroad but to citizens.

Your entire citation here is based on a BAM, DD. The burden is placed on Cruz to show that the statute is to be interpreted to permit him to run, not simply state, "I can't see any evidence that would be contrary to the position".

That's a terrible paper, DD. Is there anything better than that?

[Ben Kenobi]

Cruz's citizenship is only relevant because the whole discussion only further sheds light on Republican hypocrisy regarding the birther issue.

Yep, exactly so. All of a sudden Cruz is eligible because it's suddenly convenient? No, no, he's not. Rules are rules, they apply equally to Cruz as to a myriad of other ineligible candidates.

I tend to think it's more a case of trying to bait Democrats into arguing against his legitimacy. Unfortunately, such a tactic would be yet another Republican fail. Democrats might have a vitriolic hatred or dislike of Cruz. But we don't believe he's inherently illegitimate because of the color of his skin, as birthers do with Obama (if we're being honest about their motives).

DD firmly believes that he can win by abandoning principles he considers outdated. One - running Cruz doesn't help. Two - he's ineligible, I'm sure Democrats will be all too willing to destroy the restrictions on the presidency in order to let republicans hang themselves by running Cruz.

If Democrats were smart, they would encourage republicans to run and get behind Cruz. Especially all the evil republican conservatives.

as he is considered a natural born citizen as a result of his mother.

That's not how NBC works. You have to be born in the United States to qualify for NBC.

The discussion is only a loser for Republicans. They would be wise to do their best to let the issue go away. But we know that won't happen... because... well... people like BK.

I'm arguing that principles should remain the same. If he runs you'll be seeing me on here saying the same things for about 2 years. And being sad when Cruz loses.

[giblets]

Trying to explain how the US Constitution works to Ben is a waste of time.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben your legal reasoning is unsound. Ted Cruz had American citizenship at birth and is thus eligible to be President.

That's not how natural born citizenship works. NBC is born in America. Any place subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Last I checked, Canada was not subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

The reason being - is the restriction on dual citizenship and split loyalties. It's one thing for lower offices like Senators, but it is important for the office of the presidency that you have someone who's American only.

Cruz being born in Canada is a Canadian citizen first, American third after the Cuban. He had three nationalities, not just one at birth and is thus ineligible.

Changing the definition is really going to be a loser for republicans in the future. I'd make that argument, but then you also believe that republicans should embrace gay marriage and abortion too.

I'm not exactly sure why you vote for republicans, DD. There's a party that supports all these things.

[Sava]

Ben your legal reasoning is unsound. Ted Cruz had American citizenship at birth and is thus eligible to be President.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf

Cruz's citizenship is only relevant because the whole discussion only further sheds light on Republican hypocrisy regarding the birther issue.

I tend to think it's more a case of trying to bait Democrats into arguing against his legitimacy. Unfortunately, such a tactic would be yet another Republican fail. Democrats might have a vitriolic hatred or dislike of Cruz. But we don't believe he's inherently illegitimate because of the color of his skin, as birthers do with Obama (if we're being honest about their motives).

Any legal issues regarding him be eligible for the Presidency may take the form of a legal process... a court case. But it seems as if the issue is mostly settled, as he is considered a natural born citizen as a result of his mother.

The discussion is only a loser for Republicans. They would be wise to do their best to let the issue go away. But we know that won't happen... because... well... people like BK.

[DinoDoc]

Citizens plural? No, he wasn't. His father was a Cuban national who didn't have American citizenship when Cruz was born. Rafael Cruz, also didn't get American citizenship until just fairly recently. Ted Cruz is Canadian by birth and is a NBC of Canada. He could easily become Prime Minister there.

Ben your legal reasoning is unsound. Ted Cruz had American citizenship at birth and is thus eligible to be President.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf

[Ben Kenobi]

He was born to American citizens, Ben.

Citizens plural? No, he wasn't. His father was a Cuban national who didn't have American citizenship when Cruz was born. Rafael Cruz, also didn't get American citizenship until just fairly recently. Ted Cruz is Canadian by birth and is a NBC of Canada. He could easily become Prime Minister there.

[Sava]

Are you really planning on starting a discussion on this issue with Ben? Because, free advice and all, don't even bother.

reminds me of this:



Dealing with BK, I know how Lucy feels.

[Imran Siddiqui]

He was born to American citizens, Ben.

Are you really planning on starting a discussion on this issue with Ben? Because, free advice and all, don't even bother.

[DinoDoc]

How is he eligible? He wasn't born in the US.

He was born to American citizens, Ben.

[giblets]

I never thought I'd see the day when DD became a socialist islamofascist gayhomocommie.

Ben's trolling addiction is spiraling out of control.