Pope sends direct message to Ben

[MikeH]

BTW - I am married. In my view Kentonio is 100% right, Ben is 100% wrong.

[MikeH]

Ben, you're a ***.

Not acceptable homophobic language IMO.

[Hauldren Collider]

Kentonio, since you're too damn slow to get to the point I'm going to make it for you.

Ben, you're a ***.

[kentonio]

How would I feel about it? I'd be fine with it. Not all women or men are type-A personalities. Some women (shocker here), actually prefer staying home and looking after kids. I'm not a type A personality. This should come as NO shock whatsoever.

Bully for you - first thing - not everyone thinks or sees the world in the same way that you do.

Plenty of women are happy with that life, and good for them, but you're talking about societal norms and how you believe 'most' women want nothing more than to marry and have kids and stay at home. That isn't true which you'd find out in seconds if you actually went and talked to some women outside your catholic church once in a while.

I would like a partner who doesn't think that cooking and children are 'oppressive tools of men's mind control'. And yes, I've heard that before...

Like I said, you want a submissive little slave to act as a cleaner, maid and incubator. It's rather sad.

So it is about forcing people to accept sodomy, unlike what you previously claimed. Good - now we got *that* bull**** argument out of the way.

Telling children that they are unwell and can change because they are born gay, is absolutely horrific and falls well within the realms of child abuse. No-one willing to torture a child like that deserves to be anywhere near children.

What lies? Birthrate drops -- the civilization gets overrun because it no longer has the manpower to keep itself running. Happened to Rome.

No it didn't, don't be ****ing ridiculous. If you want to continue with this babble, then provide some firm evidence that the Roman empire fell because of homosexuals bringing down the birthrate. Obviously you won't do that, because it's utterly ridiculous. How you have the cheek to call yourself a historian is beyond me..

As I said, disposable sex, disposable people. Thank you for being honest Kentonio.

I'm aware of it, and yes - there's been much put into about how condoms increase promiscuity.

Indeed. That's because you're having sex with the rubber, not the woman. Thank you Kentonio. Sex with your wife and sex with someone else is exactly the same when you wear a rubber.

The sad thing is that you're trying to play the part of someone who thinks about more than just meaningless sex, yet at the same time somehow believes that sex is nothing more than the sensation on your dick. You should try actually getting laid some time, then you might not sound so utterly ridiculous when you talk about it.

Plenty of articles on it. Women on hormonal contraception have sex and have a lower libido than those off of it.

Ridiculous.

Kentonio apparently is a woman. That's surprising.

Speaking of someone who actually has some experience of this, I can tell you that it makes very little difference. Please explain how you feel any kind of qualification to talk about the difference?

As is the idea that whomever you have sex with unites you both in body and spirit. Right Kentonio?

Obviously. It's completely moronic.

Then she can go get married to that other dude.

Except she won't, she'll probably just go and **** him because you're leaving her unfulfilled.

See - the problem with things like this - is that they are based on the conclusion that they will be happier living out the lie. So you don't want to have kids, and want sex - we talk about that. That's what adult couples are supposed to do. You asked me about compromise. You really think we couldn't work something out? There are legitimate means and this thread has talked about them.

Oh so now there are legitimate alternatives? How about you spell them out, rather than suddenly being so vague?

I know I'm not wrong on this.

You are completely wrong on this. If you want to claim otherwise, supply some evidence to support your wild claim.

They've already achieved it. Something like 60 percent of all college grads are women. Are they happy with the results? What I'm seeing and hearing is that no - no they aren't very happy with the results.

That's because you're an idiot. Go and try telling those college grads that they'd be happier on their hands and knees scrubbing the floors at home for a nice husband, and see how fast they tell you to go die in a fire.

So why are you drawing conclusions from these things and then stating, "he's obviously like it in real life", when someone who's slightly wiser might say, "hey, maybe he's just a really quiet guy, who doesn't speak out in public much, but likes Apolyton, because it gives him a chance to truly speak his mind".

So basically you're just as much of a naive, misogynist in real life, you just talk as much so people don't notice. You think this is good?

She was my first girlfriend, and it made an impression to me at the time. I'd never heard that argument before and it mystified me.

Because it's stupid. Shocker: sometimes people say stupid ****.

Unsurprised.

About marriage? You don't know jack. Sorry. I won't insult the folks who actually are married by comparing them to you.

That's because you're a jackass who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. In practical terms the only difference between a marriage and a committed relationship is the party at the start and the potential separation difficulties at the end. I don't know what crazy ass mental picture you have of marriage that makes you think it's anything different on an actual day to day basis.

Why wouldn't I be used to such compromise? I deal with that on the same basis. The bigger issue with Marriage, is, unlike your arrangements - you can't bail when things get tough. Call me when you give it a try. It'll be an eye opener. Easier to compromise when nothing important is on the line.

Every statement you make is a clear indicator that you're not used to compromising. As for 'bailing' on marriage, considering something like half of marriages end in divorce these days, you're talking out of your ass again. What you actually mean is that in your fairy tale perfect imaginary marriage, there's no bailing out.

Disappointed in what - the sex or in being in love or both together. Apparently Kenobi is a choirboy. Who knew?

You've spoken many times about this perfect marriage with a nice submissive woman who thinks the same as you and is willing to follow the same strict biblical rules etc etc. The reality of living with another human being as a couple is going to leave most of that looking really naive.

I disagree.

Yet there you are, single.

One - that stat is flawed. It talks about those who have used contraception at any point of their life. Even women use contraception sometimes to regulate other hormonal issues would count.

If you believe that is statistically significant, then you're delusional.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's because you're not a woman you jackass. They think pretty much exactly the same as we do, they're as intelligent as males and have ambitions and aspirations just like males. How would you feel if someone told you that your entire role in life was to marry early, and sit at home popping out kids, cleaning and cooking for your partner?

How would I feel about it? I'd be fine with it. Not all women or men are type-A personalities. Some women (shocker here), actually prefer staying home and looking after kids. I'm not a type A personality. This should come as NO shock whatsoever.

Because personally, if society tried to tell me that was all I could have in life, I'd tell them to go **** themselves.

Bully for you - first thing - not everyone thinks or sees the world in the same way that you do.

Yes, we realize all you want in life is your own little woman slave to stay at home and look after you.

I would like a partner who doesn't think that cooking and children are 'oppressive tools of men's mind control'. And yes, I've heard that before...

Good, he's a total ***** who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children.

So it is about forcing people to accept sodomy, unlike what you previously claimed. Good - now we got *that* bull**** argument out of the way.

Funnily enough telling children lies about how they can 'convert to straightness' is not showing tolerance.

Funnily enough you're willing to enforce thoughtcrimes on other people. Contrary to what you originally stated earlier. Glad we're all on the same page now.

Stop telling lies.

What lies? Birthrate drops -- the civilization gets overrun because it no longer has the manpower to keep itself running. Happened to Rome.

The answer is quite simply that you're having sex with a different partner.

As I said, disposable sex, disposable people. Thank you for being honest Kentonio.

If you'd ever actually had sex before, you'd realize quite how idiotic a thing you're asking is.

I'm aware of it, and yes - there's been much put into about how condoms increase promiscuity.

A condom is not a magical energy barrier keeping the man and woman separated. Apart from a moments annoyance putting the damn thing on, the experience is basically no different.

Indeed. That's because you're having sex with the rubber, not the woman. Thank you Kentonio. Sex with your wife and sex with someone else is exactly the same when you wear a rubber.

Please explain precisely how a woman using the contraceptive pill impairs anyones enjoyment of sex.

Plenty of articles on it. Women on hormonal contraception have sex and have a lower libido than those off of it.

Then please explain how the use of a condom impairs anyones enjoyment of sex.

Kentonio apparently is a woman. That's surprising.

When people are waiting until their late twenties or thirties to get married, then yes the idea of not having sex until then is frankly ridiculous and unnatural.

As is the idea that whomever you have sex with unites you both in body and spirit. Right Kentonio?

You were talking about being with a wife and choosing to not have sex.

And you were talking about partnership without having sex. Yes, there are periods when my wife isn't going to be able to have sex. I'm not sure how that would be considered difficult when someone has waited a long time to have sex in the first place. Oh no. I might have to wait several months because my wife had a baby. Damn. How will I ever survive?!

The sad part is that the most likely outcome of telling a woman that she can only have sex if she is willing to have a baby as a result, is that she'll just become frustrated and end up cheating on you.

Then she can go get married to that other dude.

If that's the worst lie a partner ever tells you, then you'll be a lucky man indeed.

See - the problem with things like this - is that they are based on the conclusion that they will be happier living out the lie. So you don't want to have kids, and want sex - we talk about that. That's what adult couples are supposed to do. You asked me about compromise. You really think we couldn't work something out? There are legitimate means and this thread has talked about them.

You think that and you're wrong.

I know I'm not wrong on this.

There was a very good reason why women's sufferage movements took off in the way they did

Yes, and that women in the 50s couldn't vote.

, and why since then women have been fighting tooth and nail for social equality.

They've already achieved it. Something like 60 percent of all college grads are women. Are they happy with the results? What I'm seeing and hearing is that no - no they aren't very happy with the results.

I can only go off the image you portray here, which is of a naive misogynist.

So why are you drawing conclusions from these things and then stating, "he's obviously like it in real life", when someone who's slightly wiser might say, "hey, maybe he's just a really quiet guy, who doesn't speak out in public much, but likes Apolyton, because it gives him a chance to truly speak his mind".

Sorry but I'm not sure of the relevance of some random woman saying something silly one time.

She was my first girlfriend, and it made an impression to me at the time. I'd never heard that argument before and it mystified me.

Nope, instead I've been in long term relationships with several women over the years, living together exactly as if we were married.

Unsurprised.

So yes, I feel qualified to talk about this stuff.

About marriage? You don't know jack. Sorry. I won't insult the folks who actually are married by comparing them to you.

The difficulty is something that seems much bigger the first time, because you're not used to the experience of compromising with someone who becomes such a huge and integral part of your day to day life. It becomes a lot easier once you get used to it.

Why wouldn't I be used to such compromise? I deal with that on the same basis. The bigger issue with Marriage, is, unlike your arrangements - you can't bail when things get tough. Call me when you give it a try. It'll be an eye opener. Easier to compromise when nothing important is on the line.

No, I'm saying that creating stupid version of temptation is utterly idiotic and damaging.

You haven't understood at all.

If you're married you may feel the temptation to cheat with another woman. That is a temptation, and one that if you give into it can destroy your relationship. not having sex with your own wife because you're unwilling to use contraception is a temptation of your own creation, and that would harm nothing if you just stopped being ridiculous about it.

You're working - not only off very wrong ideas of my expectations of the Other - but also of my own expectations.

You really need to stop building up this fairy tale marriage thing in your head, or else it's just going to end up disappointing you.

Disappointed in what - the sex or in being in love or both together. Apparently Kenobi is a choirboy. Who knew?

Finding a person who is completely compatible with you as a person is hard enough, but finding one who also happens to agree with the multitude of thick red lines you're setting down is going to make it almost impossible to ever find a partner.

I disagree.

It's been brought up many times before, but 99% of Catholic women have used contraception at some point in their lives. So not only are you already limiting your potential dating pool to Catholics, but then you're also intending to write off 99% of them as well. You really think that's a smart plan?

One - that stat is flawed. It talks about those who have used contraception at any point of their life. Even women use contraception sometimes to regulate other hormonal issues would count.

Two - yes, limiting it to Catholics is hard. Limiting it to faithful Catholics is even harder. Sometimes the dude actually has pocket aces. I encourage you to turn into the next episode of, "As the Kenobi turns".

[kentonio]

DP

[kentonio]

You're right. Having a man go to work, look after you and your children, having the whole white picket fence thing was an age of oppression for women. Do they really have it better today? I don't see it. I see some women saying that it's better that they can live and support themselves, but I don't see how they are any happier for it.

That's because you're not a woman you jackass. They think pretty much exactly the same as we do, they're as intelligent as males and have ambitions and aspirations just like males. How would you feel if someone told you that your entire role in life was to marry early, and sit at home popping out kids, cleaning and cooking for your partner? Because personally, if society tried to tell me that was all I could have in life, I'd tell them to go **** themselves.

That's the deal I'm working towards - work enough - make enough to support a family so my wife can do that. Stay at home. I don't have a problem with women working, and again - you talk about compromise. This is something that I'm willing to work around however it works out. I've done it in the past, and will do it again. If I'm the one who has to take the time off work - again I'm willing to do that. But my goal is to make enough so that the option of her staying at home is on the table. I'm not there yet.

Yes, we realize all you want in life is your own little woman slave to stay at home and look after you.

Yeah, you are. Look up Chris Kempling. He was fired from his teaching position over this.

Good, he's a total ***** who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children. Funnily enough telling children lies about how they can 'convert to straightness' is not showing tolerance.

Yes, it has, and there are good reasons for it. Drops in the birthrate have been devastating in the past.

Stop telling lies.

That's not an answer to the question. Answer the question please. What's the difference between contraceptive sex with another partner and contraceptive sex with your wife? Why are they different?

You've now turned a nonsensical 'question' into merely a stupid question, that I can give an easy answer to. Thank you. The answer is quite simply that you're having sex with a different partner. Your question is no different to asking what the different is between having unprotected sex with another partner and with your wife. If you'd ever actually had sex before, you'd realize quite how idiotic a thing you're asking is. A condom is not a magical energy barrier keeping the man and woman separated. Apart from a moments annoyance putting the damn thing on, the experience is basically no different.

Thank you. So it's not about 'controlling your reproduction', but sex. So lets get the bull**** out of the way - the rationale for contraception is that you're willing to impair your enjoyment of sex to get what you perceive to be more sex.

Please explain precisely how a woman using the contraceptive pill impairs anyones enjoyment of sex. Then please explain how the use of a condom impairs anyones enjoyment of sex.

Apparently choosing to wait to have sex until you are married makes you a 'mental ******', and presumably 'disfunctional in today's society'. That's as much a commentary of today's society as anything else - the fixation on the hookup.

When people are waiting until their late twenties or thirties to get married, then yes the idea of not having sex until then is frankly ridiculous and unnatural.

It's called courtship. I'm aware you find this period offensive.

You were talking about being with a wife and choosing to not have sex. The sad part is that the most likely outcome of telling a woman that she can only have sex if she is willing to have a baby as a result, is that she'll just become frustrated and end up cheating on you.

Right, lies make for a firm foundation of any relationship.

If that's the worst lie a partner ever tells you, then you'll be a lucky man indeed.

Interesting what people perceive as words I've never said. I think most women are happier staying at home and looking after their children. Certainly not all women, but most, I believe, feel this way. Is it because it's 'unchallenging'? No, hardly, but because looking after your own children is just that important.

You think that and you're wrong. There was a very good reason why women's sufferage movements took off in the way they did, and why since then women have been fighting tooth and nail for social equality.

Perhaps there's a disconnect then between your perception of me and reality.

I can only go off the image you portray here, which is of a naive misogynist.

My first girlfriend. I was a bit set back at that - I argued she was wrong then as now.

Sorry but I'm not sure of the relevance of some random woman saying something silly one time.

I'm amused that you think it's easy. It's not. Even for two people who love each other. Have you ever been married Kentonio?

Nope, instead I've been in long term relationships with several women over the years, living together exactly as if we were married. So yes, I feel qualified to talk about this stuff. The difficulty is something that seems much bigger the first time, because you're not used to the experience of compromising with someone who becomes such a huge and integral part of your day to day life. It becomes a lot easier once you get used to it.

You seem to believe that because someone has a certain moral code that they choose to live by that they do not suffer from temptation.

No, I'm saying that creating stupid version of temptation is utterly idiotic and damaging. If you're married you may feel the temptation to cheat with another woman. That is a temptation, and one that if you give into it can destroy your relationship. not having sex with your own wife because you're unwilling to use contraception is a temptation of your own creation, and that would harm nothing if you just stopped being ridiculous about it.

You really need to stop building up this fairy tale marriage thing in your head, or else it's just going to end up disappointing you. Finding a person who is completely compatible with you as a person is hard enough, but finding one who also happens to agree with the multitude of thick red lines you're setting down is going to make it almost impossible to ever find a partner. It's been brought up many times before, but 99% of Catholic women have used contraception at some point in their lives. So not only are you already limiting your potential dating pool to Catholics, but then you're also intending to write off 99% of them as well. You really think that's a smart plan?

[Ben Kenobi]

No, the foolishness is in embracing a version of morality that existed in an age that is now considered by a vast majority to have been in reality extremely immoral.

As opposed to today which has become more 'moral'. In what way, shape and form has it become more moral, except to embrace immorality? I hear you say it. I don't see it.

You're harking back to a time when women and minorities were treated like absolute ****, and then acting surprised by why people might think that's a pretty ****ed up time to long for.

You're right. Having a man go to work, look after you and your children, having the whole white picket fence thing was an age of oppression for women. Do they really have it better today? I don't see it. I see some women saying that it's better that they can live and support themselves, but I don't see how they are any happier for it. Most who work hate working and would rather be at home looking after their children. Society today has made this life very difficult.

That's the deal I'm working towards - work enough - make enough to support a family so my wife can do that. Stay at home. I don't have a problem with women working, and again - you talk about compromise. This is something that I'm willing to work around however it works out. I've done it in the past, and will do it again. If I'm the one who has to take the time off work - again I'm willing to do that. But my goal is to make enough so that the option of her staying at home is on the table. I'm not there yet.

A) No-ones asking you to 'ambrace' anything, they're asking you to not act like a total ***** about other peoples life choices.

Yeah, you are. Look up Chris Kempling. He was fired from his teaching position over this.

B) 'Sodomy' as you so charmingly call it, has never resulted in the demise of any society, don't be stupid.

Yes, it has, and there are good reasons for it. Drops in the birthrate have been devastating in the past.

Ok. The idea that having sex with your wife using a condom is any different to not using one is so utterly inane as to make no ****ing sense at all.

That's not an answer to the question. Answer the question please. What's the difference between contraceptive sex with another partner and contraceptive sex with your wife? Why are they different?

Spoken like someone who have never slept with a woman before. This will probably come as a surprise to you, but sex is good. Really, really ****ing good.

Thank you. So it's not about 'controlling your reproduction', but sex. So lets get the bull**** out of the way - the rationale for contraception is that you're willing to impair your enjoyment of sex to get what you perceive to be more sex.

Only a seriously mental retarded religious fanatic would knowingly chose to deny themselves something so integral to being a human being.

Apparently choosing to wait to have sex until you are married makes you a 'mental ******', and presumably 'disfunctional in today's society'. That's as much a commentary of today's society as anything else - the fixation on the hookup.

As for being with a partner and just not having sex with them because of some idealism about contraception

It's called courtship. I'm aware you find this period offensive.

like most Catholic women any future wife you have will almost certainly just take the pill anyway and just not tell you.

Right, lies make for a firm foundation of any relationship.

No, you genuinely and honestly come across as an ignorant, misogynistic *******. You talk about women as if they are cute little simple creatures who just need a good man to take care of them so they don't need to worry their pretty little heads about anything.

Interesting what people perceive as words I've never said. I think most women are happier staying at home and looking after their children. Certainly not all women, but most, I believe, feel this way. Is it because it's 'unchallenging'? No, hardly, but because looking after your own children is just that important. Society today doesn't value that very much, actually. Most of it is geared towards limiting the time between parents and their children in a variety of ways. I think this is backwards.

If you speak to women in person anything like you write about them here, it beggars belief that you haven't had your ass kicked by one yet.

Perhaps there's a disconnect then between your perception of me and reality.

No, love and sex can go together just fine, and be absolutely wonderful. The naivety comes in the thinking that if you find a wonderful woman that then every sexual encounter will be fluffy rainbows and angels playing harps and so on.

This is the funniest thing I've ever seen posted here.

Who exactly has suggested spending your life with someone you don't love?

My first girlfriend. I was a bit set back at that - I argued she was wrong then as now.

Actually it is pretty easy if you just act like a normal human being, tolerate differences in your partner, and don't try and set up huge red lines left, right and center. Then again it helps if you care about your partner more than you care about some make believe invisible friend

I'm amused that you think it's easy. It's not. Even for two people who love each other. Have you ever been married Kentonio?

So you're accepting that your fictional future wife is sometimes just going to want to screw, not 'make love'?

You seem to believe that because someone has a certain moral code that they choose to live by that they do not suffer from temptation.

[kentonio]

It is the modern delusion which believes that everything older than itself, must, of course, be outdated and wrong for today's age, and that by embracing ideals that were condemned long before that they will escape the same difficulties encountered previous. This is contradictory.

No, the foolishness is in embracing a version of morality that existed in an age that is now considered by a vast majority to have been in reality extremely immoral. You're harking back to a time when women and minorities were treated like absolute ****, and then acting surprised by why people might think that's a pretty ****ed up time to long for.

I'm not sure why embracing sodomy is 'progressive'. Is the thought that it's something new and hasn't been tried? It has - it doesn't end well for any society that does so.

A) No-ones asking you to 'ambrace' anything, they're asking you to not act like a total ***** about other peoples life choices.
B) 'Sodomy' as you so charmingly call it, has never resulted in the demise of any society, don't be stupid.

I asked a question. I suggest you answer the question, as stupid as it may sound.

Ok. The idea that having sex with your wife using a condom is any different to not using one is so utterly inane as to make no ****ing sense at all. When it comes to the contraceptive pill it's an even more stupid question that makes no sense. Are you so utterly self absorbed that you would consider your theoretical wife as to be an irrelevance unless she could get knocked up?

There is a way for anyone to control their reproduction 100 percent of the time. People are not paying money to stop reproduction.

Yes, and this is difficult, how? Why are you paying money for something you get for free?

Am I really so dumb as to be unable to figure out that if I don't want children - right now - that there are not ways around that? C'mon, Kentonio.

Yeah, that's really primary in my mind as to how hard it's going to be to live with a woman and not sleep with her...

Spoken like someone who have never slept with a woman before. This will probably come as a surprise to you, but sex is good. Really, really ****ing good. Only a seriously mental retarded religious fanatic would knowingly chose to deny themselves something so integral to being a human being.

As for being with a partner and just not having sex with them because of some idealism about contraception, that's just dumb. Luckily for you, like most Catholic women any future wife you have will almost certainly just take the pill anyway and just not tell you.

No, it's simply how you perceive someone who is opposed to the holy trinity of abortion, sodomy and contraception. It's a meaningless word, really.

No, you genuinely and honestly come across as an ignorant, misogynistic *******. You talk about women as if they are cute little simple creatures who just need a good man to take care of them so they don't need to worry their pretty little heads about anything. If you speak to women in person anything like you write about them here, it beggars belief that you haven't had your ass kicked by one yet.

Right. I've had this debate before I even became Christian and heard the exact same thing you are saying now. That saying that sex and love should be together is 'incredibly naive'.

No, love and sex can go together just fine, and be absolutely wonderful. The naivety comes in the thinking that if you find a wonderful woman that then every sexual encounter will be fluffy rainbows and angels playing harps and so on.

Perhaps this is how atheists see the world, I don't know. It seems a very small and unsatisfying existence to spend your life with a woman that you don't love but just want to get off every now and then. I didn't see the selling point then, and I don't see the selling point now.

Who exactly has suggested spending your life with someone you don't love?

Compromise on what? Some things shouldn't be compromised by either party. You're speaking to someone who seriously considered becoming Catholic to marry a wonderful lady. Yes, I understand compromise. I am willing to compromise on certain things. I know that it's not so simple even with two people who love each other. It takes time. It can be very difficult.

Actually it is pretty easy if you just act like a normal human being, tolerate differences in your partner, and don't try and set up huge red lines left, right and center. Then again it helps if you care about your partner more than you care about some make believe invisible friend too, but hey ho..

And apparently Kentonio believes this is a revelation for Kenobi. Perhaps you should tell me something I don't already know.

So you're accepting that your fictional future wife is sometimes just going to want to screw, not 'make love'?

[Ben Kenobi]

Which just goes to show what a backwards idiot you actually are.

It is the modern delusion which believes that everything older than itself, must, of course, be outdated and wrong for today's age, and that by embracing ideals that were condemned long before that they will escape the same difficulties encountered previous. This is contradictory.

I'm not sure why embracing sodomy is 'progressive'. Is the thought that it's something new and hasn't been tried? It has - it doesn't end well for any society that does so.

The fact you have to ask something quite so mind numbingly stupid is yet more proof that you will never have a girlfriend, let alone a wife.

I asked a question. I suggest you answer the question, as stupid as it may sound.

People have this crazy desire to actually control when they reproduce

There is a way for anyone to control their reproduction 100 percent of the time. People are not paying money to stop reproduction.

so they can do things like ensure they are financially prepared to raise a child and emotionally mature enough to carry that responsibility. Crazy stuff I know..

Yes, and this is difficult, how? Why are you paying money for something you get for free?

None of which requires you to be an ignorant, misogynistic *******, which is how you come across every time you talk about women.

No, it's simply how you perceive someone who is opposed to the holy trinity of abortion, sodomy and contraception. It's a meaningless word, really.

Dear god, don't you think that she might just want to have a say in it too?!

Yes, and? Do you really think that if she didn't want children with me that we would be getting married?

Are you also so incredibly single minded that you can't wrap your brain around the thought that getting pregnant at the drop of a hat isn't necessarily the best thing for parents or child?

Am I really so dumb as to be unable to figure out that if I don't want children - right now - that there are not ways around that? C'mon, Kentonio.

For one thing it means you're likely to be having a lot of time sex free after the birth, as women have this strange aversion these days to just churning our children until their wombs give way.

Yeah, that's really primary in my mind as to how hard it's going to be to live with a woman and not sleep with her...

How would you know?

How would you?

It's all just theoretical to you, which shown in the incredibly naive terminology you always use.

Right. I've had this debate before I even became Christian and heard the exact same thing you are saying now. That saying that sex and love should be together is 'incredibly naive'.

Perhaps this is how atheists see the world, I don't know. It seems a very small and unsatisfying existence to spend your life with a woman that you don't love but just want to get off every now and then. I didn't see the selling point then, and I don't see the selling point now.

You have this picture book fantasy of marriage in your head, and you are totally unwilling to accept the idea that a partnership of any kind requires compromise on both sides.

Compromise on what? Some things shouldn't be compromised by either party. You're speaking to someone who seriously considered becoming Catholic to marry a wonderful lady. Yes, I understand compromise. I am willing to compromise on certain things. I know that it's not so simple even with two people who love each other. It takes time. It can be very difficult.

Here's a hint for you though, sometimes women don't want to 'make love' they just want to get laid.

And apparently Kentonio believes this is a revelation for Kenobi. Perhaps you should tell me something I don't already know.

[Ben Kenobi]

Using birth control is a separate and fundamentally lesser infraction than abortion.

Indeed which is why the prohibition on the use of the birth control pill is regulated by prohibitions on early term abortions.

[Ben Kenobi]

Others with men.

It's interesting you've come out.

[kentonio]

I'm tending to side with Christians for the first nineteen centuries.

Which just goes to show what a backwards idiot you actually are.

The point is this - you're refusing to commit to your partner. You're holding back an essential part of you from your partner in exchange for sex anytime. How is this any different then going outside the relationship and getting sex from someone else?

The fact you have to ask something quite so mind numbingly stupid is yet more proof that you will never have a girlfriend, let alone a wife.

People have this crazy desire to actually control when they reproduce so they can do things like ensure they are financially prepared to raise a child and emotionally mature enough to carry that responsibility. Crazy stuff I know..

I've simply said, if I'm going to get married to someone, it will be because I want to have children with her, and because she's the most devastatingly beautiful woman I've ever known. I would feel that she's my soulmate and that I would love her forever.

None of which requires you to be an ignorant, misogynistic *******, which is how you come across every time you talk about women.

Why would I want to use a condom with her when I want to have children that are just as amazing as her?

Dear god, don't you think that she might just want to have a say in it too?! Are you also so incredibly single minded that you can't wrap your brain around the thought that getting pregnant at the drop of a hat isn't necessarily the best thing for parents or child? For one thing it means you're likely to be having a lot of time sex free after the birth, as women have this strange aversion these days to just churning our children until their wombs give way.

Right, because 'getting laid' is the same as making love to my wife.

How would you know? It's all just theoretical to you, which shown in the incredibly naive terminology you always use. You have this picture book fantasy of marriage in your head, and you are totally unwilling to accept the idea that a partnership of any kind requires compromise on both sides.

Here's a hint for you though, sometimes women don't want to 'make love' they just want to get laid.

[Aeson]

Some of us are quite satisfied with women.

Others with men. And as we've established, you are prone to thinking about goats when sex comes up. To each their own. Just stop posting about sex with babies please.

[kentonio]

I love these Kenobi threads. Few things funnier than listening to an uptight virgin lecturing on how sex and relationships work.