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  • Right to Slience

    Interesting Supreme Court case, Salinas v Texas:

    At 11 a.m. Wednesday, the Supreme Court will hold one hour of oral argument on the constitutional meaning of an individual's choice to remain silent when, before he is actually arrested, police ask a damaging question about a crime.  Arguing for the convicted man in Salinas v. Texas (docket 12-246)


    The short summary is that, during the investigation of a murder, Salinas was questioned not as a suspect (not in custody, but in the police station, so no Miranda warning). The questioning went about an hour. Towards the end, the officer questioning him asked him whether the shotgun his father had voluntarily given the officers would match the shells they found at the crime scene; Salinas looked down and did not say anything.

    He was later convicted of the murder. The prosecutor brought up this silence during the trial (among other evidence, which I'm not sure how solid that was) and during his closing arguments.

    The attorney now has appealed based on his fifth amendment right to silence. It has been generally held that the 5th amendment privilege extends to preventing the prosecutor from using your invoked 5th amendment right against you - ie, the prosecutor may not mention that you chose not to testify to imply you were concealing your guilt (any other reading would render the right largely meaningless). However, the question is whether the 5th extends to this point (pre-custody).

    -----

    My thoughts on this one are that I'd generally like to think the 5th should extend to pre-custody questioning; but in this particular case, it seems it's not unreasonable to make the inference (from his body language, from his voluntary answering of many other questions, etc.) . There are some arguments that he could have invoked it explicitly, but I think that's a bad argument - in a police questioning situation it's often difficult to remember you have rights (even when you do know, which it's possible he didn't) and it's hard to engage those rights in any event (often people think the cops won't allow them to engage their rights, particularly in rural areas where the police might well get away with a significant use of force).

    I think that the Miranda rule ought to extend to any question that is directly intended to elicit a fact about the guilt of the person being questioned. If the question is a truly general question ("Do you know if anyone was in the area with a gun") then it's okay, but if the question is "Were you in the area with a gun", that's a direct question and should be included as requiring a Miranda warning. I'd generally extend it to any situation where the person should be asking for an attorney, but that's a complicated situation to explain.

    I'm very curious why the court took this, as well. It seems like this case is one where the correct ruling on the facts may well be different from the "correct" ruling in terms of precedent - the accused conveyed his guilt through body language and other details that do not exactly equate to 'silence', after all. Did they take it because it will make it easier to rule against expanding criminals' rights (as apparently this court tends to)? Or did they take it just because they wanted to make the precedent clear?
    <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
    I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

  • #2
    My rules with dealings with the police is to keep silent and volunteer no information.
    When I first encounter the officer, I try to defuse the the situation with humor, it has gotten me out of many traffic tickets.
    I'm hard of hearing but really exaggerate my condition when confronted by a police officer. I mention off hand that I got a combat injury while I was in the military, this creates a sort of bonding.
    Don't laugh, It works.

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    • #3
      Anyone that talks to the police in a situation like that (even if innocent) without a lawyer is a moron and deserves the consequences of that decision.
      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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      • #4
        I think you hardly should be expected to get a lawyer every time the police question you, especially when they don't suggest you are a suspect (which was suggested was the case here). Of course if you ARE guilty you probably should lawyer up right away, but perhaps he thought that would make him look guilty?

        Further, you're not exactly the kind of person we're talking about, here. A lot of people, especially of other races, distrust the police for good reason.
        <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
        I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by snoopy369 View Post
          A lot of people, especially of other races, distrust the police for good reason.
          All the more reason to get a ****ing lawyer.
          but perhaps he thought that would make him look guilty?
          Being all shifty and refusing to make eye contact with the officer totally made him look innocent, right?
          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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          • #6
            You are talking about a 19 year old, IIRC... not exactly world wise. And distrusting the police extends to distrusting lawyers, also.
            <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
            I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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            • #7
              FTR: While Jenkins v Anderson said it didn't broach the issue of under what circumstsances pre-arrest silence may be protected by the Fifth Amendment, I don't see how it augers anything but badly for him.
              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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              • #8
                By the time the police have pulled you in for questioning you're already on their radar and doing things that make you look guiltier will not increase the amount of investigation they do. Always get a lawyer.

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                • #9
                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                  "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                  He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                  • #10
                    It sounds like the state is trying to get by on a technicality.
                    No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Mad Monk View Post
                      It sounds like the state is trying to get by on a technicality.
                      Sounds more like it was icing on the cake presented to the jury.
                      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Prosecutorial overreach often is.
                        No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Mad Monk View Post
                          Prosecutorial overreach often is.
                          In what way would you argue that this is an infringement on his rights?
                          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That's the root question, isn't it? Whether the right to not have your silence to an incriminating question held against you applies when you're not explicitly under arrest. Clearly "under arrest" is a rather arbitrary line; but you do need an arbitrary line somewhere, hence the question. I don't think it's cut and dry, hence it being an interesting question.

                            I'd note that the various appeals courts and state courts are split close to 50/50 on this issue, so it's clearly not something that's obvious, even to fairly intelligent and educated people.
                            <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                            I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                            • #15
                              You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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