Do "unnatural" things exist?

[giblets]

It seems to me like humans came about through natural causes, are natural and everything humans do is natural whether it's making plastic or blowing up other humans. DISCUSS.

[N35t0r]

ONLINE POLLS ARE UNNATURAL

[Docfeelgood]

Do unnatural things exist?

look in a mirror

[Nikolai]

Some things are unnatural. Nobody can convince me it's natural for kids to have sexual relations with an adult for example. Or animals being fed their own kin as food by modern farmers.

[snoopy369]

If "Unnatural" exists as a word, then it must have some meaningful definition (ie, at least some thing must exist that is unnatural). You can either go Nikolai's route, and apply a moral connotation to it, or you can go the 'organic food' route of calling anything manipulated by humans unnatural; I think a good route is to use 'unnatural' to describe chemicals or elements that do not exist in stable form in nature. So, for example, vanilin in "fake vanilla" is artificial, but not unnatural (it exists as a compound in nature).

[Hauldren Collider]

The problem with 'organic food' is that organic food is also manipulated by humans. Corn, apples, etc have all been genetically modified (just the old fashioned way--selective breeding). They are still cultivated by people and not gathered from naturally-occurring locations. It's completely meaningless. The whole concept is really retarded.

[Dauphin]

If "Unnatural" exists as a word, then it must have some meaningful definition (ie, at least some thing must exist that is unnatural).

Not necessarily. You could define unnatural as anything that can't exist. For example, FTL could be considered unnatural. I wouldn't use that definition for unnatural. I would probably go back to it's basic etymology - frame it in terms of something that is present innately.

I see the whole argument as one of frames of reference and semantics. Often used for rhetorical effect and fallacy arguments.

[snoopy369]

Who are you to tell people what they should value or not value? There are certainly definitions of 'unnatural' that have some meaning and some value. Completely discarding the concept of 'organic food' is silly - it's trivial to show that pesticides have some harmful effects, for example; so avoiding them is not a bad thing. Perhaps those effects are smaller than the effects of not being able to feed 7 billion people, but for those who want to avoid them, why not.

As for GMO or whatnot, I don't agree that GMO is automatically bad - or necessarily bad at all - but again, I don't think that it's appropriate to call people who are concerned about GMO crops 'retarded' (if you allow for the use of that word at all, which hopefully you'll grow out of soon?). It's certainly not impossible to posit a genetic modification that could be harmful. Sure, some genetic modifications made via selective breeding can also be harmful - potatoes have the classic example of that - but again, if people want to avoid one source of potential harm, even if it's silly in your mind, why do you care? We certainly don't know all that much about some of what we're doing, and will undoubtedly have some hiccups along the way as we develop new and better crops. Sticking with what's known to be safe is not an unreasonable approach, particularly if you don't know much about science and have trouble making an informed decision about what is safe and what is not.

[snoopy369]

Not necessarily. You could define unnatural as anything that can't exist. For example, FTL could be considered unnatural. I wouldn't use that definition for unnatural. I would probably go back to it's basic etymology - frame it in terms of something that is present innately.

I see the whole argument is one of frames of reference and semantics.

Well, if you want to be semantic about it At least something must be describable then.

[PLATO]

nat·u·ral
[nach-er-uhl, nach-ruhl] Show IPA

adjective
1.
existing in or formed by nature ( opposed to artificial ): a natural bridge.

2.
based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature: Growth is a natural process.

3.
of or pertaining to nature or the universe: natural beauty.

4.
of, pertaining to, or occupied with the study of natural science: conducting natural experiments.

5.
in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land.

un·nat·u·ral
[uhn-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl] Show IPA

adjective
1.
contrary to the laws or course of nature.

2.
at variance with the character or nature of a person, animal, or plant.

3.
at variance with what is normal or to be expected: the unnatural atmosphere of the place.

4.
lacking human qualities or sympathies; monstrous; inhuman: an obsessive and unnatural hatred.

5.
not genuine or spontaneous; artificial or contrived: a stiff, unnatural manner.

Hmmmm....

[N35t0r]

[edit:] lol, major x-post. This was in reply to HC.

While I agree with you that some arguments in favour of organic food are retarded, if you really can't see a difference between GM and selective breeding, then you have a pretty limited viewpoint.

[giblets]

All things are "1. existing in or formed by nature ( opposed to artificial ): a natural bridge." and therefore natural. Unless there's some God sitting outside the universe, but I don't believe that. Humans were formed by nature, through millions of years of evolution, and are part of nature.

[Hauldren Collider]

The only reason for being suspicious of genetically modified food is ignorance. Or stupidity. It's not like Monsanto is lacing it with Chemical X.

[Hauldren Collider]

[edit:] lol, major x-post. This was in reply to HC.

While I agree with you that some arguments in favour of organic food are retarded, if you really can't see a difference between GM and selective breeding, then you have a pretty limited viewpoint.

There isn't a difference. One is just a lot more efficient.

[N35t0r]

The only reason for being suspicious of genetically modified food is ignorance. Or stupidity. It's not like Monsanto is lacing it with Chemical X.

So your argument is that a corporation has never ever done enything harmful to its customers?