Karl Rove proves he may be evil but he's not an idiot.

[Hauldren Collider]

Tea party's not going to split off, they are, fundamentally, the Republican base. Most of the "radical" and new ideas of the tea party have already become Republican doctrine--essentially, fiscal conservatism, budget cutting. Social issues aren't as important to the movement as the press likes to pretend they are.

What IS going to go away is the anti-establishment stuff. Most Republicans have now embraced the things that the Tea Party really wanted changed from Bush-era Republicans: cutting entitlements instead of expanding them.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Now if we could just someone to help purge the Boxer and Pelosiesque frootloops from the Democratic Party.

[DinoDoc]

Now if we could just someone to help purge the Boxer and Pelosiesque frootloops from the Democratic Party.

That would be the entire leadership of the party.

[kentonio]

Tea party's not going to split off, they are, fundamentally, the Republican base. Most of the "radical" and new ideas of the tea party have already become Republican doctrine--essentially, fiscal conservatism, budget cutting. Social issues aren't as important to the movement as the press likes to pretend they are.

What IS going to go away is the anti-establishment stuff. Most Republicans have now embraced the things that the Tea Party really wanted changed from Bush-era Republicans: cutting entitlements instead of expanding them.

So far millions of Republicans have been swept along by a message that sounds appealing but which will cause them to **** a brick when they realize the implications. All those Tea Party seniors in their wheelchairs shouting about keeping government out of their Medicare? Yeah, how do you think they are going to react if a Republican gets into the White House and suddenly they can't afford medicine any more? How about all those low income white guys who suddenly find that when their job gets shipped to China, suddenly there's no unemployment relief while they try and find a new job while still feeding their kids?

The right is going through a fantasy phase where things that EVERYONE knew were untouchable have suddenly become seemingly acceptable. It's bull****, and it's going to be exposed as bull****. All politics is local, and if you think the big picture of a huge national debt is going to soften the blow of Joe Public losing the things that help keep a roof over their heads and food on their table, then you're tripping.

[MichaeltheGreat]

So? Time to get new leaders.

[MrFun]

I think they were sucked in initially by the potential of having a huge grassroots movement springing up to energize the party. It's looking more and more like that was a terribly, terribly bad decision.

What grassroots movement? The Tea Bagger movement was schemed and financed by elitists like the Koch brothers from the beginning.

[DinoDoc]

The right is going through a fantasy phase where things that EVERYONE knew were untouchable have suddenly become seemingly acceptable. It's bull****, ...

The most powerful force in the universe (mathematical reality) is going to be forcing those kinds of scenarios in a few years anyway if nothing of substantive is done to reform the system.

[MrFun]

The most powerful force in the universe (mathematical reality) is going to be forcing those kinds of scenarios in a few years anyway if nothing of substantive is done to reform the system.

By reform, you mean, "dehumanizing the poor, breaking the middle class, while coddling the wealthy," right?

[DinoDoc]

I refuse to be held responsible for what your addled mind reads into the things I post.

[kentonio]

The most powerful force in the universe (mathematical reality) is going to be forcing those kinds of scenarios in a few years anyway if nothing of substantive is done to reform the system.

What do you think the public response is going to be when the cash is about to run out, and suddenly you're telling people that they have to lose their Medicare or SS yet the military still needs its latest 30bn weapon system? How about we finally admit that America is the richest country in the damn world, and if it can't provide the same 'entitlements' as every other western nation then it means you're doing it wrong.

[DinoDoc]

What do you think the public response is going to be when the cash is about to run out, and suddenly you're telling people that they have to lose their Medicare or SS yet the military still needs its latest 30bn weapon system?

Hell in 7 years interest on the debt alone is going to be greater than the entirety of our defense budget.

CBO: Interest on debt snowballing

They also predict 7 trillion to be added to the debt over the next decade.

But I would be willing to listen to you explain why none of this matters, why we can simply let things go on as they are and it will all work out in the end.

[kentonio]

Hell in 7 years interest on the debt alone is going to be greater than the entirety of our defense budget.

CBO: Interest on debt snowballing

They also predict 7 trillion to be added to the debt over the next decade.

But I would be willing to listen to you explain why none of this matters, why we can simply let things go on as they are and it will all work out in the end.

The GOP aren't interested in an adult conversation based around reducing the debt without hurting Americans, they're in full on slash and burn mode. You have a democratic President and Senate willing to cut spending including entitlements that a decade ago they'd have set themselves on fire before they were willing to even discuss. Instead of engaging and compromising in an environment where both parties are willing to discuss hard choices, the GOP are using it as a political football to try and force through their most extreme fantasies. It's both irresponsible and dangerous, and completely undermines any image of fiscal responsibility they might otherwise have had.

[MichaeltheGreat]

By reform, you mean, "dehumanizing the poor, breaking the middle class, while coddling the wealthy," right?

Not necessarily, but "make the rich pay their fair share" isn't a much more intelligent mantra either. There has to be a point where Democrats realize that increasing tax rates doesn't produce more revenue after a certain point - it instead has an inhibiting effect and causes revenue to decline.

Both sides like to make idiotic, surgically scoped arguments, like Dems pointing back to the 90% marginal rates in the pre-1954 Internal Revenue Code, while ignoring the massive numbers of arcane deductions on just about everything that made the marginal rate structure near meaningless. Remember the days when you could deduct interest on credit card debt and sales taxes? For just a couple of items.

Real tax reform, and real procurement reform (remember, I worked in procurement for USG for a while until I got sick, lol) are non-sexy things that don't lend well to spin. They're out of the grasp of voters, out of the expertise of elected officials, and prime targets for lobbyist spin.

Neither party wants to acknowledge that would could make huge progress on the deficit by massive tax policy reform and procurement reform, without affecting tax rates or the core principles of the goals of entitlement programs. That wouldn't be enough to solve the problem by any means, but it would narrow the gap substantially.

[MichaeltheGreat]

The GOP aren't interested in an adult conversation based around reducing the debt without hurting Americans, they're in full on slash and burn mode. You have a democratic President and Senate willing to cut spending including entitlements that a decade ago they'd have set themselves on fire before they were willing to even discuss. Instead of engaging and compromising in an environment where both parties are willing to discuss hard choices, the GOP are using it as a political football to try and force through their most extreme fantasies. It's both irresponsible and dangerous, and completely undermines any image of fiscal responsibility they might otherwise have had.

To be completely honest, both sides are doing that still.

[DinoDoc]

You have a democratic President and Senate willing to cut spending including entitlements that a decade ago they'd have set themselves on fire before they were willing to even discuss.

Citation needed.

President Obama dodges 'hard choices' on entitlements