Originally posted by MrFun
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When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat View PostDavid Frum made a good point a while back about how support services, etc., were more effective in reducing the number of abortions, but I really can't fault pro-lifers for what you cite. It is entirely a different philosophical argument as to the role of the state or society vis-a-vis the role of the parents in the raising, economic well-being, health, education, etc. of the baby after it's born. There's not give a damn, then there's give a damn, but it's not the state's role to intervene unless x, y or z occurs.
"Force an impoverished woman to carry a baby to full term, but screw the new mother and child and deny them any government assistance."A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.
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John, I think the point that you (and ~40% of Americans) are missing is acknowledging that ~40% of Americans have a different viewpoint [~20% don't give a ****], and acknowledging their right to disagree with your viewpoint - and that their viewpoint could be valid. It's not reasonable in political discourse to hold to one absolute viewpoint and deny that there are other valid viewpoints. You must acknowledge other valid viewpoints prior to engaging in political discourse; if you don't, you aren't engaging in political discourse. (See: US House of Representatives )
Once you say "OK, so there are two valid viewpoints. Abortion at any point from conception to birth is wrong, and Abortion is not wrong before some reasonable point [birth, a few months prior to birth, whatever]. What is the politically reasonable solution here?" I think you come to an obvious conclusion: let people decide for themselves, and regulate it to ensure there is some thought process and some sanity (ie, no late-term abortions). That's pretty reasonable, IMO, and consistent with most of our other laws: let people make up their own **** mind. Alcohol is evil? OK, if you want to not drink, don't drink [see: Snoopy]. If you want other people not to drink, move to Utah (err, wait...) It's also pretty consistent with religious and political freedom, which is what this country was founded upon. In theory...<Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.
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I'd note that pro-choice people need to read the above and learn the exact same lesson from it, by the way. Both sides misbehave similarly there, IMO.<Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostYou genuinely think most pro-choice people are big fans of late term abortions?I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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Originally posted by MrFun View PostI disagree. If pro-life people insist that life is sacred, then it doesn't make sense to draw a line to life being sacred only until after birth.
"Force an impoverished woman to carry a baby to full term, but screw the new mother and child and deny them any government assistance."When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Originally posted by DinoDoc View PostWell as an example of that point, Canada has no legal limit on when an abortion can be performed.When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat View PostWere we talking about Canada?I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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Originally posted by snoopy369 View PostJohn, I think the point that you (and ~40% of Americans) are missing is acknowledging that ~40% of Americans have a different viewpoint [~20% don't give a ****], and acknowledging their right to disagree with your viewpoint - and that their viewpoint could be valid. It's not reasonable in political discourse to hold to one absolute viewpoint and deny that there are other valid viewpoints. You must acknowledge other valid viewpoints prior to engaging in political discourse; if you don't, you aren't engaging in political discourse. (See: US House of Representatives )
Once you say "OK, so there are two valid viewpoints. Abortion at any point from conception to birth is wrong, and Abortion is not wrong before some reasonable point [birth, a few months prior to birth, whatever]. What is the politically reasonable solution here?" I think you come to an obvious conclusion: let people decide for themselves, and regulate it to ensure there is some thought process and some sanity (ie, no late-term abortions). That's pretty reasonable, IMO, and consistent with most of our other laws: let people make up their own **** mind. Alcohol is evil? OK, if you want to not drink, don't drink [see: Snoopy]. If you want other people not to drink, move to Utah (err, wait...) It's also pretty consistent with religious and political freedom, which is what this country was founded upon. In theory...
There is a big difference between not drinking alcohol (or drinking alcohol) or restricting other freedoms of the sort and killing someone (which removes all future freedoms/etc). It shouldn't even be comparable (not that I consider 'restricting freedom' to be the obvious moral good to judge ethics based on).
Basically, I Think your position is monstrous.
JMJon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
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Originally posted by Jon Miller View PostSo we should just allow people to decide for themselves if killing someone who is 5 is murder, or killing someone who is over 65...
There is a big difference between not drinking alcohol (or drinking alcohol) or restricting other freedoms of the sort and killing someone (which removes all future freedoms/etc). It shouldn't even be comparable (not that I consider 'restricting freedom' to be the obvious moral good to judge ethics based on).
Basically, I Think your position is monstrous.
JM<Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.
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Originally posted by Jon Miller View PostSo we should just allow people to decide for themselves if killing someone who is 5 is murder, or killing someone who is over 65...
There is a big difference between not drinking alcohol (or drinking alcohol) or restricting other freedoms of the sort and killing someone (which removes all future freedoms/etc). It shouldn't even be comparable (not that I consider 'restricting freedom' to be the obvious moral good to judge ethics based on).
Basically, I Think your position is monstrous.When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat View PostIf they're denied all government assistance. There's also a valid point or two about individual responsibility, the extent of the welfare state, and a few dozen other things. I see women (I know a couple of people who's daughter did this - luckily my daughter has a lot more sense and brains) who just decide they want a kid - in their late teens or early 20s, no real job skills, no stable relationship, just some sperm donor who's "hot" because he has tats and a 'tude, and they don't give a **** - someone else, often their parents, will do a lot of the work, then there's government services for this, that and the other. That's one extreme of the spectrum, but there is a spectrum. It's not all poor impoverished victims and big bad Republican wolves. The problem with liberals and conservatives both (and I'm neither) is that they often spend more time caricaturing the opposing view and spinning their own than they spend actually looking in depth at how to solve an issue.
However, for record, I was not saying that the reality is that poor new mothers are denied all government assistance. I'm just saying that it seems to be the hypocritical opinion/thought of many anti-choice people to stop valuing a person's life after that person is born.A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.
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