Is anyone on Apolyton a proponent of late term abortions?
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View PostA lot of vocal pro-choicers (which is why it appears more pro-choices are against late term restrictions) make a lot of noise about late term abortion restrictions being a restrictrion on a woman's right to choose.
Personally, I think the fight over partial dilation & extraction abortions is one the pro-choice crowd should have avoided. Or at least offer a compromise that the performing physician must certify medical necessity and that no less invasive procedure was medically sound in the specific circumstances.When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post"Killing people by drowning should not be illegal as only a few people are doing it."
JM
In the case of the partial dilation & extraction bill, your correct analogy would be "killing people by drowning should be illegal, but any other method of killing them is legal, because we really don't like drowning."When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Jon you have very strong opinions on the abortion issue, so let's be fair there is unlikely to be any form of abortion that you would accept, no?
From the American pro-choice people I know, any fighting to protect late term abortion is purely because the anti side are so stridently in favour of banning all abortion that they don't feel they can give an inch. Personally I'd have set the bar earlier (with the exceptions MtG described) and then refused to move past that, but I can at least understand why many people are reluctant to do so. It's hardly easy to have a grown up conversation about it while people are shooting doctors and bombing clinics.
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Obviously it should be when science recognizes him/her as a human being with a functional mind, which occurs before the 3rd trimester.
Saying "we won't recognize that a person in this specific situation is a person due to the fact that it would make a handful of people murderers" is shear lunacy.
JMJon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
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Or "will someone think of the poor woman who is getting her rights constrained, obviously she should be able to permanently remove the rights of another so as to not have her rights constrained for an additional month/etc."
JMJon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat View PostPersonally, I think the fight over partial dilation & extraction abortions is one the pro-choice crowd should have avoided. Or at least offer a compromise that the performing physician must certify medical necessity and that no less invasive procedure was medically sound in the specific circumstances.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Originally posted by Al B. Sure! View Post
As a side note, why do liberals act like pro-lifers just want to put women in chains as if the abortion debate isn't about a axiomatic disagreement about the commencement of life?A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat View PostThat covers most of the pro-life crowd in the US. The intermediate goal is to ratchet the restrictions as far as politically feasible at any given time, then come back for more. Most of the pro-choice crowd in the US (most, but not all) support late term restrictions on abortion.A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat View PostHave you bought into the notion that everything that disagrees with a conservative viewpoint is "liberal?"
Nobody has a monopoly on hypocrisy. The issue isn't disagreement about commencement of "life," since neither dead eggs nor dead sperm do anything. The issue is where does the state gain a legitimate interest in the whatever it is at that stage that's developing in the womb, such that the state controls certain aspects of what the woman can do. For "pro-lifers" who disapprove of exceptions for rape and incest, the issue is that the state has the power to give superior rights to the non-sentient blastocyst/embryo/fetus, because it does not matter whether the woman in question (remember her?) ever consented to being impregnated.
There are typically two layers of hypocrisy - first, social conservatives who want to regulate the hell out of abortion typically are hands off regulating business and more public activities, and insist on individual rights re how to raise your kid, how many guns you have, etc. So, like hard core lefties who want to regulate the hell of out some things, but not others (e.g. smoke dope and **** whoever you want, but (the entity in the sky who can not be named) forbid you try to start a business.
The second layer of hypocrisy is that the only regulation is typically abortion - oh, we must protect God's little love drop, but feel free to eat like ****, smoke, drink while pregnant, engage in medically unsound faith healing practices. After all, we're in the liberty business. So Pro-lifers typically don't give a **** about anything other than the abortion decision.
The other thing you're conveniently forgetting is the recent history prior to Roe v Wade. Roe came only 6 years after Griswold. It used to be common that a married woman could not get a birth control prescription without her husband's permission. There's liberty for you. Also used to be common that single women would be denied birth control prescriptions by her doctor, or the pharmacy. Single women were supposed to be chaste and wait for the right fellow to come along and make proper wifeypoos of them, you know?
Let's not forget the hypocrisy of many anti-choice people who talk about how life is sacred, but then couldn't care less about the baby after it's born.A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.
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Originally posted by Jon Miller View PostObviously it should be when science recognizes him/her as a human being with a functional mind, which occurs before the 3rd trimester.
Saying "we won't recognize that a person in this specific situation is a person due to the fact that it would make a handful of people murderers" is shear lunacy.
JM
What constitutes a "functional mind?" and how do you specifically test for that? Justice Blackmun chose viability because there was broad medical consensus that that point could be clearly defined and agreed upon. Technology for testing fetal brain function was essentially non-existent in 1972, and even now, you have limits in testing technology and questions of interpretation.
Other than life-threatening or severely health-threatening (e.g. paralysis, organ damage, sepsis, etc.) situations, I think restriction on abortion should be legal at some earlier point around mid-second trimester, somewhat before arguable viability or some arbitrary level of brain function.When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."
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Originally posted by MrFun View PostHere's my question. For so many conservatives, why do they call themselves pro-life, when they treat life as being sacred only until after the baby is born?
"Here's my question. Why are so many liberals lazy and stupid?"<p style="font-size:1024px">HTML is disabled in signatures </p>
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