Ah, the sweet, refreshing smell of Atheism in the morning

[Jon Miller]

Because not all religions are the same.

If you look at most religions, I don't think they would compete very well. And they don't (Scientology mostly competes by trickery, pressure, and dirty tricks and it competes worse than Hinduism (I think) or Christianity).

JM

[Jon Miller]

This thread had followed the standard pattern:

Atheist: Now we see the proof, people are waking up to the fact that they are being irrational/misled/etc. The reason why so many people believe is not because they find it rational, but because they are just going along/don't think/etc. Why is anyone religious? Why are Christians religious? There is no rational reason to be so.

Christian: One of the main reasons I am a Christian is because of the transforming power of Christ, because He has changed my life and many other people's lives.

Atheist: Well, obviously that can't be the reason to be a Christian because look at these terrible people who are Christian, who did terrible things and led people to horror.

Christian: Well, really they didn't follow Christ, if you looked at what Christ said. They were just Christians because everyone was a Christian/because it gave them power over others/etc.

Atheist: No! They are the epitome of being Christian. They definitely understood what Christ wanted as well as anyone possibly can, they definitely weren't going along/not thinking/etc.

JM

[onodera]

Because not all religions are the same.

If you look at most religions, I don't think they would compete very well. And they don't (Scientology mostly competes by trickery, pressure, and dirty tricks and it competes worse than Hinduism (I think) or Christianity).

JM

Hasn't Jesus Christ made his followers abandon his families and the established way of life? Is the level of competetiveness an indication of the truthfulness? Are rats better animals than giant pandas?

[Elok]

But why are you an Orthodox, Elok, and not a Hindu or a Salafi or a Scientologist? You're not a Cafeteria Christian, I suppose, but why do you think that your prepackaged meal is the right one? How, when confronted by a throng of religions all claiming to be the right one, did you determine which one was really the right one?

I haven't considered every religion on earth, of course--I'd spend the rest of my life digging if I tried to do that, and still gain no more than a superficial understanding of each. But the more I learn about Orthodoxy, the more it appeals to me. Its moral imperatives, its whole moral framework, seem correct; instead of the stale modern morals where you should just "be good" in the sense of not being a total heel all the time, a call to perfection. Now, many religions have that. I've looked into some of the others, and find all the ones I've examined unsatisfactory for one reason or another. Buddhism, for example, rejects the very self as an illusion, which simply seems wrong. I have no interest in saving what does not exist. There's too much will to negation there, and the emphasis on dispassion is too sterile. And, yes, much of this is going by instinct or impulse, and I may well be conditioned to go with Orthodoxy because I was raised in it. I can only do my best here, and have faith (= trust) that whoever or whatever is out there will honor my intentions. The alternative is to decide my feelings on goodness and sanctity were all an illusion and think smugly that, when my parish priest and I are both rotting in the ground doing nothing in particular, my rotting corpse will have belonged to someone who was correct. What's the bloody point of that?

[Jon Miller]

Hasn't Jesus Christ made his followers abandon his families and the established way of life?

No. Have you read the Bible?

The Bible does say that if your family won't let you follow God, to follow God and not stay with your family. This might be what you are misunderstanding.

The Bible is very simple, if you have a child like faith.

If you want to understand it as a questioning, doubting, and critical adult, you have to spend a lot of time to understand it because the meaning of any passage will be wrapped up in the meaning of other passages. This isn't just me making claims, this is how the Jews read scripture since before Christ was born and what was done purposefully by the prophets or Whoever inspired the prophets.

Just the first chapter of Revelation requires or suggests reading parts of Isaiah, Daniel, Corinthians, Hebrews, other parts of Revelations (obvious), 1 Peter, Matthew, and probably more. (I am certain Isaiah and Daniel should be required, still thinking about some of the others)

JM

[Jon Miller]

BTW, I am someone who considered going the religious but not attending church/etc route (which is usually related to the spiritual/not religious route). I didn't go to church from mid 2003-mid 2004. And didn't attend often until 2006. I did pray every day, and did study my Bible at least a bit every week.

I realized though that attending often or being involved spiritually with others is a needed component of mine (And I think most peoples) spiritual lives. We just drift more away from God when we don't make the effort to be involved with others. I have seen this with family members and other people close to me too many times. They realize that attending church isn't important (which directly is true, but indirectly is not true), but soon just don't have much time for God and He isn't as big of part of their life.

While I defend organized religion, I understand it's problems, and why people would want to not be involved with it. My fiancee is a non-denominational Christian and is very distrustful of denominations. She has at times described herself as more spiritual than religious. She does attend sometimes with me (I attend ~2 per month usually) and studies the Bible/listens to sermons on her own time (and sometimes attended when we didn't live together).

I would like to be involved at church, I think this is even better than just attending, which means I should go more often than ~2 times a month.

I haven't really done this on a long term basis yet (I did from 2007-2008, and it was really valuable).

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

I would agree with the notion that attending a faith community regularly is a necessary component of a healthy spiritual life (at least as a Christian). I think that constant involvement reminds us to be there for other people, whether they are going through joy or pain. And that reminder allows us to work in our communities for change. It allows our faith to be strengthened.

My church is a big portion of my life. I go every week. I met my girlfriend at church (though started dating her only after I started going regularly). A lot of people who I find to be important in my life are also part of my church family & it has created a very strong sense of community for me. I think that this sense of community makes me more willing to help, not only them, but those outside of that church family as well - bringing the blessings given to me to others.

I hope you can also find a church, Jon, that will become home for you and where you'll be able to be more involved.

[Kidlicious]

That's about right. Most "spiritual but not religious" folk tend to believe in God or life-force or whatever, but don't adhere to any one religion's view - it allows them to paint God in their own image .

There are many views to choose from with any religion. You ultimately pick which view it right for you. There is no difference from that and picking for yourself, your own beliefs (not believing in doctrine at all). At any rate, everyone who is religious says that everyone else who doesn't believe what they believe doesn't worship the true God. It doesn't count for much.

[Kidlicious]

I am still surprised that people with the slightest modicum of education (i.e. having been exposed to the scientific method and logic) can believe in the fairy tales that make up the various religions. I guess it shows how strong indoctrination is from an early age...

The scientific method and logic tells me nothing about the existence of God, what about you?

[Kidlicious]

True, that's kind of what I was aiming at. Once you apply any form of thought that does not require leaps of faith it is too easy to punch holes in any religions. Of course it is easier to ignore the glaring holes and go with the faith aspect. I can appreciate that religions provide people with comfort and security; I just find it difficult to reconcile that educated people still go along with the ride.

Why do you think that truth does not require a leap of faith?

[Kidlicious]

The moral framework underlying our civilization, however, is a "Judeo-Christian" one. Nietzsche was one of those who was able to see that if you got rid of God (or the Christian God to be more specific in the European context), you have to kind of start over in terms of morality. One of the reasons believers tend to respect Nietzsche was that he was honest about what it meant to fully reject a Christian worldview.

What Nietzche said is, "God is dead," meaning that religion exists, but it makes no difference for good anymore because the religious twist the rules to benefit their special interests. It's actually a very good critique.

[Kidlicious]

BTW, I am someone who considered going the religious but not attending church/etc route (which is usually related to the spiritual/not religious route). I didn't go to church from mid 2003-mid 2004. And didn't attend often until 2006. I did pray every day, and did study my Bible at least a bit every week.

I realized though that attending often or being involved spiritually with others is a needed component of mine (And I think most peoples) spiritual lives. We just drift more away from God when we don't make the effort to be involved with others. I have seen this with family members and other people close to me too many times. They realize that attending church isn't important (which directly is true, but indirectly is not true), but soon just don't have much time for God and He isn't as big of part of their life.

While I defend organized religion, I understand it's problems, and why people would want to not be involved with it. My fiancee is a non-denominational Christian and is very distrustful of denominations. She has at times described herself as more spiritual than religious. She does attend sometimes with me (I attend ~2 per month usually) and studies the Bible/listens to sermons on her own time (and sometimes attended when we didn't live together).

I would like to be involved at church, I think this is even better than just attending, which means I should go more often than ~2 times a month.

I haven't really done this on a long term basis yet (I did from 2007-2008, and it was really valuable).

JM

For me, I go to church. I'm actually a member of the UMC. I do not however, consider myself religious because I only follow Jesus. He is my only teacher.

[Kidlicious]

Hasn't Jesus Christ made his followers abandon his families and the established way of life? Is the level of competetiveness an indication of the truthfulness? Are rats better animals than giant pandas?

I think you are right onodera. That's why I posted the verses from Matthew. The religious are competitive, and they are tribal, which only leads to sin. The ends don't justify the means.

[Dinner]

Religion is slavery.

[Dinner]

No. Have you read the Bible?

Don't lie. All of Jesus's disciples abandoned something to send their lives as a wandering vagabond with him. Yes, this included abandoning their wives and children to be "enlightened" pieces of dog **** who abandoned their children. **** them. ****, Jesus and **** anyone who says it is ok for men to abandon their progeny.