A depressing thread

[MOBIUS]

You reap what you sow...

Yep. 2,000 dead American soldiers in Afghanistan and counting...

Not to mention all the tens of thousands of wounded and most likely hundreds of thousands that are likely to be mentally ****ed up now and in the years to come by serving in Afghanistan.

Oh yes, what a fantastic success!

[Hauldren Collider]

It certainly is. The only question is at what level of exposure.

You can literally eat DDT and be fine. You have to get to very high concentrations before it starts to hurt you. Saying it's only a matter of exposure is a boring observation, since everything is toxic as some level of exposure.

DDT doesn't actually kill bald eagles, by the way. It messes up their eggs.

[regexcellent]

This reminds me of the big thalidomide scam. A bunch of layabouts looking for an easy payday.

I'm under the impression that there actually is scientific evidence to support thalidomide being bad for fetuses when consumed by pregnant women. However I haven't actually seen any of that evidence, so I'll withhold judgment.

[Wezil]

Evidence?!

It can't be believed.

[regexcellent]

You can literally eat DDT and be fine. Saying it's only a matter of exposure is a boring observation, since everything is toxic as some level of exposure.

Whether that's true or not, I don't know; I know Michael Crichton once wrote something to that effect. However it certainly was way safer than the stuff which replaced it.

[regexcellent]

Quick google/wiki shows that there actually is overwhelming scientific evidence supporting the thalidomide/flipper baby claim, unlike with Agent Orange.

[Wezil]

I guess that depends on what you are prepared to accept as evidence. If you want to be a gullible dupe of the anti-thalidomide industry go ahead.

[Aeson]

So now demonstrate that symptoms claimed by people who were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam are related to over-exposure to that ingredient. Or at least that in the concentrations with which people were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam it measurably causes those symptoms, due to that ingredient.

When you can do that, let me know.

xpost

Not my job, not my fight. I'm perfectly happy to let those involved and more informed decide what level of compensation is commesurate with the damage done (or not done) by Agent Orange on those populations.

You are the one who made a claim that Agent Orange was safe to drink. I've been ridiculing you for that by pointing out that one of the readily available components of Agent Orange isn't safe to drink. (As well as your ridiculous notion that herbicides aren't harmful to humans because we aren't herbs. )

You back up your claim if you want. Drink it.

[Aeson]

So now demonstrate that symptoms claimed by people who were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam are related to over-exposure to that ingredient. Or at least that in the concentrations with which people were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam it measurably causes those symptoms, due to that ingredient.

When you can do that, let me know.

xpost

Not my job, not my fight. I'm perfectly happy to let those involved and more informed decide what level of compensation is commesurate with the damage done (or not done) by Agent Orange on those populations.

You are the one who made a claim that Agent Orange was safe to drink. I've been ridiculing you for that by pointing out that one of the readily available components of Agent Orange isn't safe to drink. (As well as your ridiculous notion that herbicides aren't harmful to humans because we aren't herbs. )

You back up your claim if you want. Drink it.

[regexcellent]

I didn't say herbicides aren't harmful to humans, I said they aren't as harmful to humans as they are to the things they are designed to kill.

So far all of the evidence presented in this thread about Agent Orange has consisted of statements by veterans' groups and line items on the VA budget. Oh, and something Patrick Leahy said. Patrick Leahy, D-VT, US Senate. Because we should be listening to him. If I were quoting John McCain saying that Agent Orange never hurt anyone, would you give a ****?

[regexcellent]

http://fumento.com/agent/agent.html

Have fun!

First result on google for "Agent Orange myth"

Looks like he's done a writeup on Gulf War Syndrome too!

[Aeson]

I didn't say herbicides aren't harmful to humans, I said they aren't as harmful to humans as they are to the things they are designed to kill.

"Agent Orange is an herbicide. You can drink it. Our air force personnel in the units that used it would haze each other by making new guys drink it. That's right, you can drink it.

...

Lots of our airmen as part of a hazing ritual drank up to a gallon of the stuff and were fine. Basically, it's an herbicide, and people aren't herbs."

Clearly you think that there are no effects of drinking up to a gallon of the stuff. Your synopsis of why this is the case is that people aren't herbs. You are basing this off of some anecdotes you read in a book which you think are more convincing than the body of scientific evidence on the matter. You aren't simply being critical or questioning that body of evidence (like Kuci is beign careful to do) ... you are making positive and testable claims about what Agent Orange's effect on humans is (up to a gallon of consumption) and why that is.

So far all of the evidence presented in this thread about Agent Orange has consisted of statements by veterans' groups and line items on the VA budget.

You keep forgetting about 2-4-D. It's part of Agent Orange. It's labelled for agricultural use using the same standards as every other chemical for agricultural use. By those standards it is a dangerous chemical and protective equipment should be used when handling it. There are associated health risks and proceedures to follow when exposed. These aren't some fairy tale.

[giblets]

You can literally eat DDT and be fine. You have to get to very high concentrations before it starts to hurt you. Saying it's only a matter of exposure is a boring observation, since everything is toxic as some level of exposure.

DDT doesn't actually kill bald eagles, by the way. It messes up their eggs.

Killing unborn eagles doesn't kill eagles? Okay.

[Aeson]

You can literally eat DDT and be fine.

Given the correlations between exposure and various health problems, I would quibble with your use of "fine".

In any case, it seems to have a lower lethal dose level than 2-4-D. So I guess that means you'll be fine drinking up with reg then

You have to get to very high concentrations before it starts to hurt you. Saying it's only a matter of exposure is a boring observation, since everything is toxic as some level of exposure.

I'm glad you can agree my statement was undeniably true.

DDT doesn't actually kill bald eagles, by the way. It messes up their eggs.

a) OMG! It's like the 80's are happening all over again. (80's were my first exposure to this issue. Even that was late of course.)
b) I'm sure that's very comforting to the eagles. "It won't kill you, just make it more likely that your babies will die before hatching."

[Aeson]

Killing unborn eagles doesn't kill eagles? Okay.

Damn ... I need to start participating in abortion debates again so I don't miss opportunities like these