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World’s richest woman would prefer to pay her miners $2 a day

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  • Originally posted by Aeson View Post
    Hand someone really wealthy $1 and it will likely have next to 0 impact on their spending because it's such an insignificant amount of money.

    The poor will make better use of the money. They'll use it faster, it means more to them, and it will be back in the hands of those at the top very shortly. They don't have anywhere near as much of a chance to get it back as the people at the top do of seeing it.
    This is called velocity of money. In a currency zone with accelerating inflation, high velocity of money is a bad thing. In a currency zone with low inflation and a lot of unemployment, it's a good thing. Normally the Federal Reserve has kept us on a steady course, and the velocity of money has been about right, but recently, it has been too low and we want more of it. You were actually right that inflation would be good right now, as weird as that might sound to someone who lived through the Carter administration.

    The hypothesis that poor people, in general, contribute to greater velocity of money than rich people do, though, is probably untrue in most cases. Rich people, who have no need to "spend" the money, will instead give it to companies, such that the companies can spend it on new capital. This is the means by which both savers and consumers create demand for goods, and this is why cash doesn't actually accumulate in the hands of the rich. Bonds, equities, real estate? Yes, the rich own that. But the dollars bounce around the economy just fine.

    The left has long taken up elaborate, pseudoscientific arguments in economics that nobody at a decent econ department (like the one I graduated from) would ever take seriously. All of them are centered around the idea that the economy's livelihood depends on kludgy attempts at redistribution to the poor. None of them is accurate. The economy can reach full employment building basically whatever it wants. Pharaoh probably had Egypt close to full employment.

    Instead of doing this, the left should be the hedgehog, who knows only one very good trick - and that is to argue that a dollar's worth of consumption matters much more to the have-nots than it does to the haves. You intuited this somewhere in one of your posts; it's obvious, since people buy things roughly in order of importance - starting with clean water and clothing, and ending with those ridiculous things in Skymall magazine. This argument is ironclad. The left should hammer away at its one excellent argument, rather than devising ones that are, frankly, anti-scientific and anti-intellectual.

    It's no secret how to help those who consume the least. You don't make them pay taxes. You implement progressive consumption taxes, or at least progressive income taxes. Maybe you even give them an earned income tax credit. You also give them some money earmarked for essentials like food. Incidentally, this is more or less what we already do for the US poor.


    - - - -


    The main thrust of my argument is we don't necessarily even have to wait for politicians to get rid of stupid immigration laws to see much of the potential benefits. We don't have to actually move someone across a line to give them an opportunity to be more productive. The benefits of having workers in more productive jobs (nominally) can be had anywhere in the world, and at least in some cases to better effect than if we imported them to the US to do the same work for the same pay.


    This is where your definition on "productivity" goes awry. Obviously an American manual laborer, if anything, does less work than a manual laborer in South Asia, and yet he is paid much more. You're right to see this as unnatural, and you're right to see it as a consequence of borders.

    But economic productivity isn't how hard you work, or whether you're a man of good character. It's how valuable the service you provide is to the people who pay for it. Americans can do manual labor in a safe, prosperous country with a reasonably non-corrupt rule of law. As Jon mentioned, South Africa is not safe. Around the world, governments can be appallingly corrupt. The best service that South African laborers can provide, sadly, is manual labor in an unsafe, average-prosperity country with some serious corruption problems (which Jon also mentioned.)

    That is legitimately a less valuable service - through no fault of the workers. People should find the best ways to employ South Africans. They should bid against each other, raising the market wage. If you care about South Africans, you shouldn't be concerned about the few employers who are hiring in South Africa, you should be more concerned about the many who aren't.
    "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

    Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

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    • Too low price for a worker to work email extractor
      is there any law related to the rights of labor in Australia seriously how a labor can work in such low salary.
      Last edited by thristydevil; September 21, 2012, 19:28.

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      • Originally posted by molly bloom View Post

        You know, reggie decidedly below average, if you'd Googled about Zimbabwean history before going off on your stupid, misinformed rant about Mugabe, you might have, just by chance, come up with some accurate worthwhile information.

        Instead you and H.C. just act like cheerleaders for two appalling racist regimes based on nothing more than that some companies made big profits at some point in history and that a racist minority (a small minority in Rhodesia) were wealthy.

        Perhaps you're just nostalgic for the Eisenhower era back home when those kind of folks knew their place and the U.S. had similar laws in place.
        I think I'll respond to this. First, no one ever mentioned Rhodesia. Jon mentioned Zimbabwe once to point out how bad Mugabe is. So this rant is nothing but a distraction from your epic pwnage in this thread.

        That being said, I do recall threads previously where regexcellent commented on how the economy in Zimbabwe is worse than it was as Rhodesia. This is strictly true. Black people in Zimbabwe are poorer and more oppressed under Mugabe's regime than Ian Smith's. You seem to take this as some sort of vindication of apartheid or the policies UDI Rhodesia. It isn't. In fact, it is simply illustrative of how bad a socialist/communist regime really is--so bad that people would be better off being openly kept down by white supremacists. I certainly have no illusions over the evils of the Rhodesian government. I am confident regexcellent does not either, though I will let him speak for himself.

        Furthermore it would be shockingly ironic for someone of partially Jewish descent such as myself to yearn for the good ol' days of institutionalized bigotry in the South.

        Also, reggie decidedly-below-average is not only a lame insult, you probably don't recognize the origin of the name.
        If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
        ){ :|:& };:

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
          In fact, it is simply illustrative of how bad a socialist/communist regime really is
          I wish you actually knew what a socialist 'regime' was. See Sweden or Norway for an accurate picture. You know, those countries that keep getting voted as the happiest places in the world to live.

          Comment


          • I'm not talking about the big-government eurostates, but places like Venezuela where it isn't quite Stalinism but you also don't want to put it in the same bin as, say, France.

            Although it's funny you'd support the government systems of the Scandinavian countries, being a self-styled British conservative...
            If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
            ){ :|:& };:

            Comment


            • I went and lived in one for a while, its hard to see them as anything other than wonderful. UK conservatives are also a lot less 'conservative' than we used to be.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by molly bloom View Post
                I'm familiar with fraudulent American psychics- I enjoy the work of James Randi for instance.


                Randi doesn't claim to be psychic so I'm confused by the accusation...
                "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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                • Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                  I wish you actually knew what a socialist 'regime' was. See Sweden or Norway for an accurate picture. You know, those countries that keep getting voted as the happiest places in the world to live.
                  They aren't really socialist. They're just capitalist states benefiting from Big Government.

                  Comment


                  • So have we all come to the conclusion this ***** should open a new gold mine in Zimbabwe just so we can laugh at her when they steal everything? But, hey, at least she'll only have to pay people $2 per hour until the mine gets nationalized without compensation.

                    Sadly, stable modern countries do have work forces which demand significantly higher wages but many (most?) companies prefer to invest in places with a strong rule of law where all of their assets won't be stolen by the local dictator.
                    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                    • South Africa isn't a dictatorship. The ANC hasn't managed that yet though it would seem to not be for lack of trying...
                      If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                      ){ :|:& };:

                      Comment


                      • Aeson: Oerdin, right here, has a good intuitive grasp of why Africans are less productive, economically, than Americans are - and it's not the workers' fault at all.
                        "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

                        Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

                        Comment


                        • Your average South African miner now makes ~$1500 per month so they're making much more than $2 per hour. If the ***** wants to get people to work for $2 per hour she's going to have to try her luck in a much, much less stable country.
                          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                          Comment


                          • a dp too long ...
                            Last edited by Aeson; September 21, 2012, 23:13.

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                            • Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                              Considering you posted NINE not particularly plausible responses to our trashing of you,:
                              Trashing ? I'll have some of what you're on. Seems pretty hallucinogenic....

                              I'd say yes, you are fairly wounded and butthurt.
                              By what, exactly ? Jaguar's wholly inaccurate long distance swami act ?

                              Your feeble little squibs ?

                              reggie's pathetic rejoinder ?

                              I don't mind you having a high opinion of yourself, but surely you should at least have something to back it up.


                              You're not fooling anyone

                              No, indeed I'm not- I'm simply explaining what I did, how I did it and why. Really, it takes a pretty big ego to imagine I'd go out of my way to 'defend' myself against something that wasn't accurate in the slightest, and to people I have precious little respect for.


                              But hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself, then you go and think that. Rather that, than have you burbling about about trades unions again.

                              By the way, just for info., Friedrich Heer's ' The Mediaeval World' and Postan's 'The Mediaeval Economy' both have very good sections on what gilds/guilds were, and later works on the history of labour and trades unions, such as Pelling's 'A History Of British Trade Unionism' do a fine job of showing what the differences between trades unions and gilds/guilds were. It might save you making absurd assertions if you read any or all of them.

                              Or maybe not.
                              Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                              ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                              • Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                                And you know what? Even IF molly bloom knows all these things without google, he's still a ****ing moron, because name-dropping random obscure cultural references is not actually intelligence. It's trivia. You might win at Jeopardy! but you'll never win at life.
                                Pearls of wisdom, Obi Wan. I'll treasure them always...

                                Give a weak ad-hominem with archaic English language
                                Can I help it if my lexicon is bigger than yours ? Blame it on the benefits of a society open to ideas of socialism.
                                Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                                ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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