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A teachable moment in ME politics

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  • A teachable moment in ME politics

    The Meaning of the Egypt-Israel Cross-Border Attack [by Barry Rubin of pjmedia.com]

    A 35-man seemingly bedouin terrorist team invaded an Egyptian army base in eastern Sinai, stole a truck and armored personnel carrier, and tried to crash the Israel border gate. They killed about 16 Egyptian soldiers but those who tried to cross the border — at least five — were quickly wiped out by Israeli forces.

    You will be reading a lot of accounts of this event mostly saying the same things. But what’s really important?

    ● The incompetence of the Egyptian military. That a whole platoon size unit of terrorists — one of the largest such forces every assembled for such an attack — could plan, organize, and come together without warning for the Egyptian army speaks poorly for its intelligence capability. That they could break into a base doesn’t bode well for the Egyptian military’s competence. Presumably one reason why they wanted Egyptian vehicles — as happened with uniforms on a previous occasion — is to make Israeli soldiers hesitate to shoot or to end up getting Israelis to mistakenly kill Egyptians and set off a wider conflict.

    ● The attack was probably carried out by an al-Qaida type group allied with counterparts in the Gaza Strip. These organizations don’t care about the well-being of Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. By hitting Israel they seek to promote their image to carry out their goals. Yet the more they make enemies of the Muslim Brotherhood branches the more incentive those forces have to suppress them.

    ● To what extent, however, do these groups have backing from Egyptian Salafist forces or the Palestinian equivalent, Islamic Jihad? Such an alliance could greatly raise the level of violence and internal conflict, especially within Egypt. Is there a chance for the Brotherhood and Salafists to work together or will they clash?

    ● The Brotherhood immediately blamed Israel for engineering the attack. This means something quite different when the Brotherhood was just an opposition group in Egypt. It is now the government. Consider what this means: the organization governing Egypt has accused Israel of launching an attack on Egyptian soil and killing a lot of Egyptian soldiers. Isn’t that a just cause for war? That’s not going to happen but situations like this will arise repeatedly in future and one day can lead to war.

    ● The Brotherhood will not even condemn al-Qaida. For example, the new government could have taken a different approach: These extremists are enemies of the Egyptian people because they endanger the state’s stability and economic success. It won’t even do that. So no matter how many cross-border attacks are staged from Egypt and Israel, Egypt will just deny responsibility and blame Israel. What likelihood is there that they will try to vigorously block them?


    ● Israel has now gotten to the point where it can protect itself from cross-border attacks. We are dealing here with open country where it is hard to sneak up on the border and well-distributed Israeli defense forces that can get to any point on the frontier very quickly.

    So in strategic terms, such attacks are not a huge threat but on geopolitical terms the danger is rising steadily.

    The U.S. government response is to offer to help train and assist Egypt’s army and government. But the government is not part of the solution but rather part of the problem.


    Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood-run government lies to its people about the perpetrator of attacks on the Egyptian army; blames Israel; coddles what is most likely Al Qaeda. NB bald faced lies to one's people and peddling conspiracy theories generally don't indicate a particularly democratic disposition. Particularly if the lie in question concerns issues of potential war. And with an insular society like Egypt's that is half already riddled with conspiratorial thinking and with half to a third illiterate these lies matter.
    Questions?
    Last edited by Zevico; August 8, 2012, 07:31.
    "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

  • #2
    I'm no fan of the MB, but they've been in power for about 5 minutes. How about we give them a little time to get used to running a country before we start howling for their blood, eh?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by kentonio View Post
      I'm no fan of the MB, but they've been in power for about 5 minutes. How about we give them a little time to get used to running a country before we start howling for their blood, eh?
      This is perhaps the lamest apologism I've ever seen.
      If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
      ){ :|:& };:

      Comment


      • #4
        STFU tool. I'm a huge Israel supporter who believes things like the Golan Heights and Sinai should have been considered legitimate war gains, and strongly supports Israels right to defend itself against other nations and against terrorist groups used as proxies by hostile states. I supported Israels attack on Osirak and if it comes to a future conflict with Egypt it's very unlikely I wouldn't support them in that as well.

        That doesn't mean however that I feel any need to shout and boo and hiss at every mention of the Muslim Brotherhood, or the other players in the region like some kind of buffoonish pantomine audience. If the middle east is ever going to see peace (and trust me, the Israelis want that more than anything) then it's going to require all sides to moderate their positions and reach compromise. It'll happen with words and pens, because if it comes to missile and bombs every time there's not going to be anything left for the winners.

        Comment


        • #5
          Someone seems excessively defensive. Are you trying to peddle your nonexistant conservative credentials here?

          The Muslim Brotherhood is doing bad things and Zevico here is calling them out on it. I don't think blaming Israel for terrorism is a case of the MB trying to get its **** together.
          If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
          ){ :|:& };:

          Comment


          • #6
            The idea that this is an Israeli false flag attack is absurd on its face. That the MB would claim such bull**** is worrisome. Of course, there are undoubtedly members of this board, such as MOBIUS, who will lap up the story like the good useful idiots that they are.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
              Someone seems excessively defensive. Are you trying to peddle your nonexistant conservative credentials here?
              If I wasn't a conservative, please explain why I'd feel the need to describe myself as such? If the only meaning of conservative was the current insane US one, I'd be scrambling in the opposite direction as fast as humanly possible. I just get pissed off with the simpleton little *****es like yourself who think that everything has to be black or white.

              Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
              The Muslim Brotherhood is doing bad things and Zevico here is calling them out on it. I don't think blaming Israel for terrorism is a case of the MB trying to get its **** together.
              Zevico is being Zevico and spouting the same anti-arab **** he always does. It doesnt achieve anything, it doesnt help the situation, it fuels further violence in the middle east and ensures that the troubles never stop. As for the MB they're an organization that has relied on over the top rhetoric for years and now for the first time needs to get to grips with the cold realities of actually running a country. It's not going to be pretty at first, and it might all fail horribly, but if it does then that will be bad for everyone, so trying to pile pressure on over something trivial is not helpful.

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't think anything Zevico says ever advocates or fuels further violence in the middle east.

                Oh yes, and an attempted cross-border raid by terrorists who manage to steal some Egyptian Army inventory is not "trivial".
                If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                ){ :|:& };:

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                  I don't think anything Zevico says ever advocates or fuels further violence in the middle east.
                  Zevico is a perfect example of a GOP chickenhawk who gets his policy ideas from Tom Clancy.

                  Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                  Oh yes, and an attempted cross-border raid by terrorists who manage to steal some Egyptian Army inventory is not "trivial".
                  As we were talking about the Muslim Brotherhoods response not the attack itself, why would you think it was?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The MB lied about the source of terrorism?

                    Sounds like another government I have heard of...
                    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by regexcellent View Post
                      The idea that this is an Israeli false flag attack is absurd on its face. That the MB would claim such bull**** is worrisome. Of course, there are undoubtedly members of this board, such as MOBIUS, who will lap up the story like the good useful idiots that they are.
                      Oh do piss off you braindead twonk!

                      This is chicken feed compared to the US' lies of mass destruction with regard to the supposed huge stockpiles of WMDs your dumbass gummint claimed were in Iraq so they could attack it! I know with 100% certainty someone as dumb and gung-ho as you are would have lapped that **** up like the good useful idiot that you most definitely are! What a ****ing knobjockey...

                      Egypt launches Sinai air raids

                      Seems like the MB are taking things pretty seriously, but wait that flies in the face of your little pet conspiracy theory...

                      Meanwhile in Israeli occupied territory...
                      Is it me, or is MOBIUS a horrible person?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        And mobby flies off the handle
                        Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                        Zevico is a perfect example of a GOP chickenhawk who gets his policy ideas from Tom Clancy.
                        I'm pretty sure in Australia they have the "Liberal Party."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          what a ridiculous article.

                          The incompetence of the Egyptian military. That a whole platoon size unit of terrorists — one of the largest such forces every assembled for such an attack — could plan, organize, and come together without warning for the Egyptian army speaks poorly for its intelligence capability. That they could break into a base doesn’t bode well for the Egyptian military’s competence. Presumably one reason why they wanted Egyptian vehicles — as happened with uniforms on a previous occasion — is to make Israeli soldiers hesitate to shoot or to end up getting Israelis to mistakenly kill Egyptians and set off a wider conflict.
                          a reasonable analysis would say that the sinai has become increasingly lawless in recent times, because of the political and security vacuum since the revolution and as a result certain militant groups have taken advantage of the situation. this was not an attack on israel, it was an attack on egypitan forces. of course the attackers wanted egypitan uniforms and vehicles, it spreads confusion and aids their objectives. it's a very obvious tactic for them to adopt. it's also worth noting, which our military expert ( ) rubin fails to do, that egypitan deployments are restricted by the 1979 peace treaty. the egypitans have to get israeli permission to deploy troops in the area, it's easy to see how this would affect preparedness for and responses to threats.

                          The attack was probably carried out by an al-Qaida type group allied with counterparts in the Gaza Strip. These organizations don’t care about the well-being of Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. By hitting Israel they seek to promote their image to carry out their goals. Yet the more they make enemies of the Muslim Brotherhood branches the more incentive those forces have to suppress them.

                          ● To what extent, however, do these groups have backing from Egyptian Salafist forces or the Palestinian equivalent, Islamic Jihad? Such an alliance could greatly raise the level of violence and internal conflict, especially within Egypt. Is there a chance for the Brotherhood and Salafists to work together or will they clash?
                          pure conjecture. it's unclear at this stage who carried out the attack, it could have been a number of groups, 'islamist' or 'bedouin'. it's interesting because for months and months rubin et al have been saying that the MB are the ideological brothers of islamic extremists and now are having to construct a narrative to explain why these 'islamists' are attacking the forces of the muslim brotherhood government.

                          ● The Brotherhood will not even condemn al-Qaida. For example, the new government could have taken a different approach: These extremists are enemies of the Egyptian people because they endanger the state’s stability and economic success. It won’t even do that. So no matter how many cross-border attacks are staged from Egypt and Israel, Egypt will just deny responsibility and blame Israel. What likelihood is there that they will try to vigorously block them?
                          clearly rubin is implying that the egyptains won't try to stop these kind of attacks in future, but let's look at the facts rather than taking this guff at face value. the egypitans have responded with air strikes and troop reinforcements, which is a rather vigorous response. again rubin fails to mention the reason why egypt can't deploy or use its forces more effectively. it's clear that israel and egypt are working together in the wake of these attacks. it's clearly in their interests to do so.

                          just more of the same bull**** from barry rubin. of course it's no surprise that the usual idiots here are lapping it up.
                          "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                          "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by regexcellent View Post
                            And mobby flies off the handle

                            I'm pretty sure in Australia they have the "Liberal Party."
                            Obviously the platform is drawn from pages 245-260 of "Executive Orders", Clancy published 1996.
                            "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                            “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                              This is perhaps the lamest apologism I've ever seen.
                              Yes, they should randomly start killing some people.
                              "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

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