Why isn't this murder?

[regexcellent]

No, no, no, that's what he claims. He also initally claimed that he "jumped out of some bushes" which aren't there

The timeline of the phone conversation corroborates this. Martin got shot 2-3 minutes or so after the phone conversation ended (around which time Zimmerman told the dispatcher he'd lost sight of Martin). The shooting occurred about 30 seconds from Zimmerman's car at a walking pace.

But none of this actually matters because even if that weren't true, it wouldn't make it manslaughter. And even if it weren't true, there isn't half enough evidence to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Lonestar]

Wiglaf, the guy in here with an actual law degree, just explained that this isn't the case in the other thread

You mean the guy who has 90% of his posts be barely veiled trolls and a stout refusal to go to any DC area polymeets? Yeah, great authority to turn too.

There are also people with law degrees who would disagree with his assessment.

The timeline of the phone conversation corroborates this.

How does it corroborate a claim that he could no longer see him? It fits, if he's telling the truth, but you know, he also said that Martin was "acting suspiciously" without being able to articulate why he was, which cares his situational awareness into question.

Martin got shot 2-3 minutes or so after the phone conversation ended (around which time Zimmerman told the dispatcher he'd lost sight of Martin). The shooting occurred about 30 seconds from Zimmerman's car at a walking pace.

So, 20 yards from his car? Maybe 30? I just did 30-mississippis outside my office, in other words not when Zimmerman was "calmly standing by his car" as you previously asserted?

But none of this actually matters because even if that weren't true, it wouldn't make it manslaughter. And even if it weren't true, there isn't half enough evidence to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.

Rage, is your assertion that Martin would still have been shot by Zimmerman if Zimmerman had stayed in his ****ing car like the dispatching officer suggested?

Because that's the only way that we get to "Zimmerman was not responsible for the series of events that led to the Martin getting shot".

[notyoueither]

Wiglaf, the guy in here with an actual law degree, just explained that this isn't the case in the other thread.

You're quoting Wiglaf as an authority?

Hoo boy!

[kentonio]

I haven't followed the case word by word or anything, but is it correct that the events went something like this?

Zimmerman rings cops because a young black kid is out on the streets at night
Cops say back off
Zimmerman ignores cops and follows unarmed minor in the dark
Zimmerman tells cops he's lost the minor
Zimmerman and minor have a fight, no-one but Zimmerman knows who started it
Zimmerman shoots unarmed minor

Am I missing anything? How exactly is this not at least manslaughter? Only in America can you ignore the police and end up shooting a child on the streets and that's just considered fair game.

[Lonestar]

Pretty much yeah.

Strictly speaking the dispatcher only advised him to not follow him, not ordered to back off.

[Elok]

You're quoting Wiglaf as an authority?

Hoo boy!

Be fair. Sometimes Wiglaf does make a good point. But when he does, it's typically caked with smileys and references to sexual activity.

[Elok]

I haven't followed the case word by word or anything, but is it correct that the events went something like this?

Zimmerman rings cops because a young black kid is out on the streets at night
Cops say back off
Zimmerman ignores cops and follows unarmed minor in the dark
Zimmerman tells cops he's lost the minor
Zimmerman and minor have a fight, no-one but Zimmerman knows who started it
Zimmerman shoots unarmed minor

Am I missing anything? How exactly is this not at least manslaughter? Only in America can you ignore the police and end up shooting a child on the streets and that's just considered fair game.

IIUC, there's inadequate evidence to say "beyond a reasonable doubt." Since only Zimmerman knows anything about what happened after the phone call and his testimony is apparently vague, there's no clear picture of what happened, so he defaults to innocent. IMO he should be in trouble just for going after the kid solo while packing heat, but I don't write the laws. From what little I've heard (haven't followed the case either), Zimmerman sounds mildly deranged and shouldn't have been allowed to carry in the first place.

[Wezil]

Yeah, welcome to the US.

[Elok]

Shut up and eat your...

(consults reference)

..."Poteen," biznatch.

[kentonio]

IIUC, there's inadequate evidence to say "beyond a reasonable doubt." Since only Zimmerman knows anything about what happened after the phone call and his testimony is apparently vague, there's no clear picture of what happened, so he defaults to innocent. IMO he should be in trouble just for going after the kid solo while packing heat, but I don't write the laws. From what little I've heard (haven't followed the case either), Zimmerman sounds mildly deranged and shouldn't have been allowed to carry in the first place.

If the kid had been carrying a gun too (or even a knife) then this would seem less bizarre, but he seemingly had nothing more dangerous than a bag of candy.

[kentonio]

DP

[Wezil]

Shut up and eat your...

(consults reference)

..."Poteen," biznatch.

Sorry, your lament was just one of those "Doh!" comments.

[Elok]

If the kid had been carrying a gun too (or even a knife) then this would seem less bizarre, but he seemingly had nothing more dangerous than a bag of candy.

Of course, there was no way Zimmerman could have known that going in--which is just another reason why he should have stayed the hell away. The man may very well get off by reason of being unhinged. One hopes he will at least get some kind of legal injunction against his ever possessing a firearm again. His behavior was wildly irresponsible.

[Dr Strangelove]

Zimmerman was carrying a standard .38 pistol. He's stated the weapon was in the pocket of his jacket, the same type of jacket issued to scholastic lettermen. The pockets on that type of jacket are too shallow to conceal a pistol with a standard barrel, so the weapon would have been visible. Basically what's being said here is that if you're unarmed and being stalked by a man with a gun you are obligated to allow him to get off a shot before you attempt to protect yourself.

[The Mad Monk]

I heard he was carrying a PF-9.