Fair is fair . . . Georgia Democrats propose an anti-vasectomy bill

[Jon Miller]

Oh..my..god..

Yes.

Isn't it a nightmare?

I have often attending african-american churches. They praise the abortion in some of them.

JM

[kentonio]

How many murders do I take part in when I don't speak up.

Like the people who didn't speak up for the blacks 50 years ago.

Or the people who didn't speak up for the Jews 80 years ago.

It is a problem if someone kills themselves over guilt of what they have done. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't speak up.

When they came for the Jews, I was not a Jew
When they came for the blacks, I was not black
When they came for the babies, I was not a baby

I don't even care if they never come for me. It is still wrong. Evil. One of the greatest crimes humanity has ever done, and is still doing.

JM

Don't try and put yourself on some pedestal as if you have anything in common with those people, your position is one that pisses all over the rights of women and which already looks horrendously outdated in the west outside of the US.

Yes.

Isn't it a nightmare?

That someone I thought was intelligent and reasonable would come out with some racist **** like that? I'd call it very disappointing personally.

[Elok]

Should a woman who is pregnant with an embryo be allowed to drive in car pool lanes?
Should she be able to claim a child tax credit/break if she is pregnant with an embryo?
Should an impoverished woman, who has no children already, be able to claim food stamps for one child (the embryo)?

Well, the embryo can't drive on its own and does not currently expend significant extra resources such as food, so the tiniest bit of thought would reveal the answer: "no." Still, that's some nice snark.

[Jon Miller]

Where do women get the right to murder? How si that a woman's right?

If we decide that it is a woman's right, than it is the most horrible right since white men had the right to own another man based on the color of his skin.

How is it racist?

I love african-american people, I attend african-american churches when I am in the US.

They have been completely lied to about abortion, and support abortion completely.

"In the United States, the abortion rate for black women is almost five times that for white women."

This is even true corrected for income levels.

It is no different than asians aborting girls due to them being 'undesirables'.

For example: http://www.theroot.com/views/why-bla...n-rate-so-high

JM

[kentonio]

Where do women get the right to murder? How si that a woman's right?

If we decide that it is a woman's right, than it is the most horrible right since white men had the right to own another man based on the color of his skin.

Forcing a woman to carry a child to term forces unwanted control over her body for 9 month including the often highly painful physical damage that can ensue, including the risk of death. By telling a woman she has to carry a child to term, you are basically forcing her into a grotesque form of unwanted physical slavery. Maybe the idea of going back to the times when women were basically cattle who dropped child after child until their bodies gave out is appealing to you, but polling constantly shows that women disagree.

How is it racist?

I love african-american people, I attend african-american churches when I am in the US.

They have been completely lied to about abortion, and support abortion completely.

"In the United States, the abortion rate for black women is almost five times that for white women."

This is even true corrected for income levels.

Actually below the poverty line it's higher for Hispanic women.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/11/3/gpr110302.html

It is no different than asians aborting girls due to them being 'undesirables'.

This is why you're being a racist. You're refering to a ****ed up cultural influence in Asia and extending that out to explain a difference in statistics for black women, as if black americans have some bizarre cultural tendancy towards abortion that is missing in good white folks.

From the link I posted above..

The disparities in unintended pregnancy rates result mainly from similar disparities in access to and effective use of contraceptives. As of 2002, 15% of black women at risk of unintended pregnancy (i.e., those who are sexually active, fertile and not wanting to be pregnant) were not practicing contraception, compared with 12% and 9% of their Hispanic and white counterparts, respectively. These figures—and the disparities among them—are significant given that, nationally, half of all unintended pregnancies result from the small proportion of women who are at risk but not using contraceptives.

Now lets just think a second, who are the groups in America who are most anti-contraception and increasingly attempt to remove the ability of low income women to access contraception?

Seriously stop trying to force women to return to their former slave like roles, they're not going to take it.

[Jon Miller]

Forcing a woman to carry a child to term forces unwanted control over her body for 9 month including the often highly painful physical damage that can ensue, including the risk of death. By telling a woman she has to carry a child to term, you are basically forcing her into a grotesque form of unwanted physical slavery. Maybe the idea of going back to the times when women were basically cattle who dropped child after child until their bodies gave out is appealing to you, but polling constantly shows that women disagree.

Why are you trying to demonize me?

I guess if you demonize your opponents, than you can feel good about supporting mass murder of the innocent.

If women don't want to have children, they can get this taken care of. If they get pregnant, I am even OK with with them aborting early in the first trimester! I am not unreasonable here.

But yes, they might have to spend a few months and bear a child.

Just like someone who gets drunk and runs over someone might have to work for a few years to pay that persons medical bills/etc.

JM

[Dr Strangelove]

Ultrasounds are used to make an accurate assessment of the age of the fetus, which if the pregnancy is to be terminated would determine tha method to be used.

[Jon Miller]

This is why you're being a racist. You're refering to a ****ed up cultural influence in Asia and extending that out to explain a difference in statistics for black women, as if black americans have some bizarre cultural tendancy towards abortion that is missing in good white folks.

I know about poor hispanics. I said white women. Maybe I should have posted all the statistics with clarifications, and included all minority groups. My statement is still correct.

And I am not being racist. I explicitly did not say that african-americans have a bizarre cultural tendency towards abortion.

I said that they are lied to.

Being lied to does not mean it is OK.

Actually, I think they are lied to by 'good white folks' along with selfish african-americans. After all, who is most likely to think that more black children are undesirables?

JM

[Dinner]

By the way, it might not be necessary but I'd like to call additional attention to the incredible wrongness streak Oerdin has had in this thread, about the contents of the bill, whether it has even passed the legislature, whether the governor intended to sign, and then his whole conspiracy theory about Republicans wanting nothing more than to own women's bodies. He's really outdone himself.

1) He publicly said he supported the bill and then later changed his mind when faced with a bunch of political and media pressure. He also wrote and proposed a similar bill way back in 1996 when he was in the legislature so saying he supports such measures is FACT not opinion even if he backed down under pressure yesterday.

2) The contents of the bill were exactly as I said, you know it, I know, everyone knows it so stop trying to muddy the waters.

3) I said Republicans are out to stop abortion and they tried to use this highly invasive measure to intimidate women into not going through with it and that is exactly what they've done.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#46490494

[kentonio]

Why are you trying to demonize me?

Honestly? because you're pissing me off. When I hear the normal BK types spouting this crap then I don't let it get to me, but when people who should know better do, then it winds me up.

I guess if you demonize your opponents, than you can feel good about supporting mass murder of the innocent.

Bit rich of course that you talk about demonizing when repeatedly you've fallen back on this 'you must all just like murdering babies' bull****. Here's a clue: no-one is pro-abortion.

If women don't want to have children, they can get this taken care of. If they get pregnant, I am even OK with with them aborting early in the first trimester! I am not unreasonable here.

But yes, they might have to spend a few months and bear a child.

Except women don't always find out early in the first trimester, and for low income women especially getting the access to have an abortion can take them over that kind of limit.

Just like someone who gets drunk and runs over someone might have to work for a few years to pay that persons medical bills/etc.

You see thats just offensive.

[Jon Miller]

Now lets just think a second, who are the groups in America who are most anti-contraception and increasingly attempt to remove the ability of low income women to access contraception?

Seriously stop trying to force women to return to their former slave like roles, they're not going to take it.

I know that some groups (Catholics) have religious reasons to oppose all contraception.

I am heavily in favor of contraception.

Just because pro-life people have some who think this way does not mean the pro-life people are wrong.

JM
(I actually know some people who think similar to me who consider themselves 'pro-choice'. If that tells you how far people have been influenced.)

[kentonio]

I know about poor hispanics. I said white women. Maybe I should have posted all the statistics with clarifications, and included all minority groups. My statement is still correct.

And I am not being racist. I explicitly did not say that african-americans have a bizarre cultural tendency towards abortion.

I said that they are lied to.

Being lied to does not mean it is OK.

Actually, I think they are lied to by 'good white folks' along with selfish african-americans. After all, who is most likely to think that more black children are undesirables?

JM

How pray tell to you lie to an entire race of women, regardless of income and local geography? Actually I can think of one avenue that could be used, maybe the pulpit?

[Jon Miller]

You see thats just offensive.

I think that murder is offensive. There is nothing that excuses the murder of innocents, sorry.

I do get a bit riled up about this. I have said my piece. Maybe better if I disengage now.

JM

[Dinner]

Yet again you manage to be wrong. They were not mandating an ultrasound they were mandating a transvaginal ultrasound, and not because it was necessary but because they wanted to use it to put off women from having abortions.



Congratulations on being wrong in the 123,232,321th thread in a row.

I still can't believe HC is still trying to pretend the mandate wasn't for a vaginal penetration ultra sound. Good job on calling him out on it.

[Jon Miller]

How pray tell to you lie to an entire race of women, regardless of income and local geography? Actually I can think of one avenue that could be used, maybe the pulpit?

It is used.

Also the school system and family planning groups.

JM
(I have heard the words, from the pulpit, of "sacred right of choice")