Fair is fair . . . Georgia Democrats propose an anti-vasectomy bill

[kentonio]

In this case every selfish person will decide to kill the other person. Because that is better for them. We agree that it is unethical.

Yet we don't agree that abortion is generally unethical.

I am not saying that abortion is unethical in the situation where only one gets to live.

JM

So we've already agreed that murder is fine as long as the circumstances in which that murder take place are morally comfortable to us. So now we're down to a highly subjective definition of which murders we decide to classify as 'selfish' or not.

Ok, lets try and narrow it down further..

14 year old girl with a hugely promising future ahead of her screws another 14 year old and gets pregnant. Despite society determining that children do not have the capacity to make adult decisions do we force that child to carry another child to term, ruining her own education and future in the process because of her 'selfish' decisions?

[MrFun]

Should a woman who is pregnant with an embryo be allowed to drive in car pool lanes?
Should she be able to claim a child tax credit/break if she is pregnant with an embryo?
Should an impoverished woman, who has no children already, be able to claim food stamps for one child (the embryo)?

[MrFun]

So we've already agreed that murder is fine as long as the circumstances in which that murder take place are morally comfortable to us. So now we're down to a highly subjective definition of which murders we decide to classify as 'selfish' or not.

Ok, lets try and narrow it down further..

14 year old girl with a hugely promising future ahead of her screws another 14 year old and gets pregnant. Despite society determining that children do not have the capacity to make adult decisions do we force that child to carry another child to term, ruining her own education and future in the process because of her 'selfish' decisions?

She should be allowed to have the choice of getting an abortion.

[Jon Miller]

So we've already agreed that murder is fine as long as the circumstances in which that murder take place are morally comfortable to us. So now we're down to a highly subjective definition of which murders we decide to classify as 'selfish' or not.

Ok, lets try and narrow it down further..

14 year old girl with a hugely promising future ahead of her screws another 14 year old and gets pregnant. Despite society determining that children do not have the capacity to make adult decisions do we force that child to carry another child to term, ruining her own education and future in the process because of her 'selfish' decisions?

I know plenty of girls who have a future and education after having a child in their teens.

I don't know of anyone who had a future of any type after being aborted.

Also, I see a difference between killing and murder.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I would just like to see Republicans who are genuinely in favor of a less intrusive government.

You would like Republicans to be OK with someone murdering you because you are gay? And the government not doing anything?

That would be less intrusive.

Except in your life.

JM

[kentonio]

I know plenty of girls who have a future and education after having a child in their teens.

There are vast numbers of examples of girls who were unable to complete their educations and ended up spending their entire lives scraping though with dead end jobs to try and support a child they were not ready for and can barely support. In case you haven't got the point I'm making yet, it's that the good examples are close to worthless when it comes to legislation. A kind society legislates based on the worst case scenarios and the examples where that legislation could end up ruining lives.

You're a reasonable guy and I don't like talking down to you, but seriously man this is not a black and white issue where you get to think happy thoughts about lovely babies. This is a horribly complex issue which involves the reproductive rights of half the worlds population and a whole host of incredibly personal and traumatic issues that cannot simple be boiled down to 'murdering babies is bad m'kay'.

[Jon Miller]

It certainly would make the lives better of the poor if they could abort their babies at 10 years of age. I mean, those babies cost a lot of money and stop education/etc opportunities!

"murdering babies is bad m'kay"

Once more, I don't think we should put the line at conception. I don't think there is scientific evidence for this. I do think there is scientific evidence for when brain waves start at the end of the first trimester. Based on your reasoning there is no reason not to abort ~10 yearolds.

JM

[kentonio]

It certainly would make the lives better of the poor if they could abort their babies at 10 years of age. I mean, those babies cost a lot of money and stop education/etc opportunities!

"murdering babies is bad m'kay"

Once more, I don't think we should put the line at conception. I don't think there is scientific evidence for this. I do think there is scientific evidence for when brain waves start at the end of the first trimester. Based on your reasoning there is no reason not to abort ~10 yearolds.

JM

Actually I've made no mention of when I think any limits based on time or development should be other than saying I have sympathy for late term pro-life opinions. Personally I'd prefer to rely on scientists who actually know the field to inform us about what stage of development those 'brain waves' actually constitute any sentient thought. As I said, it's not a black/white issue.

[Jon Miller]

It is a black and white issue.

I can't say 'it is ok to kill someone when they are sleeping' or 'it is OK to kill children before 18' or 'it is OK to kill an elderly person' or even 'it is OK to kill someone in a comma' or 'it is OK to kill a disabled person'.

The only reason why this is claimed to not be a black and white issue is because it is in the economic interests of many people (women) to remove clarity and to continue to terrorize and murder their children.

JM

[kentonio]

It is a black and white issue.

I can't say 'it is ok to kill someone when they are sleeping' or 'it is OK to kill children before 18' or 'it is OK to kill an elderly person' or even 'it is OK to kill someone in a comma' or 'it is OK to kill a disabled person'.

The only reason why this is claimed to not be a black and white issue is because it is in the economic interests of many people (women) to remove clarity and to continue to terrorize and murder their children.

JM

Wow, for a Christian you certainly do seem capable of a quite nasty level of cruelty. By painting women who face this decision as some selfish cash junkies who murder babies, you help add to the trauma they already go through and help raise the number of women who end up suicidal.

[Jon Miller]

I am just being honest.

Sometimes the truth is terrible.

It is true for some things I have done myself. I am have done bad things too.

White washing doesn't help anything. It is the same as going to the Germans "Oh, you guys didn't know that Jews were humans and didn't deserve to be murdered. I am so sorry, everything will be OK."

It takes away guilt from those who deserve guilt. It takes away any push to change. It removes any opportunity for improvement.

Those who don't speak up share in the responsibility with those who do the murder.

JM
(I haven't always spoken up. I share responsibility.)

[Jon Miller]

Millions of babies have already been murdered just for their sex.

Millions of babies get murdered because african-americans are lied to, and don't realize that they are killing their own children to pay for their lifestyle.

If genetic testing comes, how many millions would be murdered due to having a gene which is correlated with homosexuality?

Many of the pro-abortion people are pro-abortion because they want to believe the lies that others tell them. Lies like the ones found in this thread. If we stop with the lies, I think that many people who want an abortion now would not one one.

JM

[kentonio]

I am just being honest.

Sometimes the truth is terrible.

It is true for some things I have done myself. I am have done bad things too.

White washing doesn't help anything. It is the same as going to the Germans "Oh, you guys didn't know that Jews were humans and didn't deserve to be murdered. I am so sorry, everything will be OK."

No it absolutely is not, and you're comparison is not only insulting to the millions of women who undergo abortions each year, but also pretty disgusting.

It takes away guilt from those who deserve guilt.

Deserve guilt? So you're holding yourself up as equal to god now then? I don't remember god mentioning abortion in the bible. Do you just get to make up yourself what classifies murder? Which doesn't apparently include war or euthanasia?

Those who don't speak up share in the responsibility with those who do the murder.

(I haven't always spoken up. I share responsibility.)

How about the first woman who's pushed to kill herself based on your need to 'speak up'. Is that a justified murder you'll have commited?

[kentonio]

Millions of babies get murdered because african-americans are lied to, and don't realize that they are killing their own children to pay for their lifestyle.

Oh..my..god..

[Jon Miller]

How many murders do I take part in when I don't speak up.

Like the people who didn't speak up for the blacks 50 years ago.

Or the people who didn't speak up for the Jews 80 years ago.

It is a problem if someone kills themselves over guilt of what they have done. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't speak up.

When they came for the Jews, I was not a Jew
When they came for the blacks, I was not black
When they came for the babies, I was not a baby

I don't even care if they never come for me. It is still wrong. Evil. One of the greatest crimes humanity has ever done, and is still doing.

JM