Fair is fair . . . Georgia Democrats propose an anti-vasectomy bill

[PLATO]

Science already has provided enough information. More than enough information.[/q]

Really? So we can tell from one instantto the next when a fetus goes from non-person to person? Or are you saying "After "x" point it is definatelya person"? That I could agree with.

Science can't decide that an African is a person or a Jew or a baby. That is something for society to decide.

I think the issue of if an African is a person has been quite thouroghly settled. Hopefully you are not also supporting racism?

Scientifically, the baby in the second trimester is the exact same as some who are considered as a living person now. The only difference is in one case no breath has been taken while in the other a breath has been taken.

I have no issue with second trimester abortions being banned. In fact, if their is scientific evidence that a second trimester fetus is a person, then government has the responsibility to defend the rights of that person. Certainly the right to life is as basic as it gets.

You are listening to peoples excuses.

You made me laugh! I can assure you that I am quite capable of forming my own opinions.

[q]They don't want to place any limits on abortion because it would inconvenience them or the political group they identify with are against any limits.

JM

I think that may certainly be the case with some...just as there are those that clearly want to place limits on an individuals right to control their own body. Extremes are not where government should be involved...it is that murky time period when things are not clear and different peoples rights are involved that we, as a society, should have the debate through representative government and make the best decision for all. While the issue is in doubt, the debate should continue.

Clearly, this is the process taking place all across the country. Extremists are involved on both sides...moderates are involved on both sides. The debate continues to be refined as more and more becomes known. While this process will lead to outrage for those that disagree with the outcomes, it is still the best process we have.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the abortion debate has been one of the better exercises of people acting through government that I have seen in my life.

[Jon Miller]

FTFY

you mean

"Even though some people think they should not kill their own children."

JM

[Hauldren Collider]

That works too, yes.

[Jon Miller]

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the abortion debate has been one of the better exercises of people acting through government that I have seen in my life.

You mean a panel of 9 people deciding it should not be restricted based on politics rather than law or reason?

JM

[giblets]

FTFY

Children? It's a parasite with no thoughts. There's nobody in there.

[PLATO]

You mean a panel of 9 people deciding it should not be restricted based on politics rather than law or reason?

JM

No. No, that's not what I meant at all.

[Jon Miller]

Children? It's a parasite with no thoughts. There's nobody in there.

Keep the lie alive.


Summary
Functional magnetic resonance imaging was used to study fetal brain activity. This activity was in response to an auditory stimulus.

Human fetal brain activity is usually studied indirectly by monitoring changes in fetal heart rate associated with fetal movements. A more direct approach has been taken by the use of magnetoencephalography,1 although results were only obtained in four out of 14 cases. In this study, functional magnetic resonance imaging (FMRI)2 was used to provide direct evidence of fetal cortical brain activity in utero. FMRI offers a strong alternative approach to studying fetal brain development and learning strategies, and may have substantial clinical and medico-legal implications in cerebral palsy, which is often thought to originate antenatally. FMRI has become an established technique for investigating adult brain activity. On activation the local blood flow to the cortex increases beyond the rate required to satisfy the metabolic demand, increasing the local intravascular concentration of paramagnetic oxyhaemoglobin relative to diamagnetic haemoglobin, and causing an increase in signal intensity (the blood oxygen-level-dependent effect).

Four women were recruited (table) with apparently normal singleton pregnancies and with the fetal head engaged in the maternal pelvis to reduce motion. Two adult volunteers were also scanned. The local ethics committee approved this study, and informed written consent was obtained from all patients. Scanning was done on a 0.5 T purpose-built echo-planar3 MRI scanner, conforming to National Radiological Protection Board guidelines. Each image was acquired in about 130 ms (switched gradient frequency 0.5 kHz). The effective gradient echo time was 64 ms, which made the sequence T2-weighted and hence suitable for FMRI.

BTW, this is an abortionist response:
"Ok, so just say we do choose presence of brain waves as indicative of life. So what? I can't recall anyone from the pro-choice side saying foetuses *weren't* alive.
It is surely a completely moot point as to when a foetus starts showing brain waves."

JM

[giblets]

I didn't say "brain waves" I said thoughts. Oh, a noise made it move, I guess it's a someone now

[Jon Miller]

The same scientific evidence that you have thoughts shows that pre-birth babies have thoughts.

JM

[giblets]

The same scientific evidence that you have thoughts shows that pre-birth babies have thoughts.

JM

I don't think an MRI machine is needed for people to conclude I have thoughts.

[Lorizael]

I don't think an MRI machine is needed for people to conclude I have thoughts.

Somebody's never heard of philosophical zombies.

[kentonio]

Care to explain how that contradicts anything I said, ******?

Go back and read your own posts ****wit.

And I just want to say...John Miller . I agree with everything you've written here. Bravo.

Surprise, surprise, HC's position is the one based on a lack of any empathy or compassion towards actual living people. I was surprised to hear Jon being an extremist, but for you its just standard GOP script line isn't it. Protect the children until they come out of the womb and then they can **** off and die in the gutter because you don't want to actual provide any support system for the poor.

[giblets]

Somebody's never heard of philosophical zombies.

They could pass the MRI test too.

[Lorizael]

They could pass the MRI test too.

That's kind of the point. We don't have any particularly good evidence to conclude that you have thoughts.

[MRT144]

The debate is when does something that starts out as two single cells merging become a person...clearly this is at somepoint during a pregnancy. Equally clearly is a woman's right to choose what happens to her body as long as it does not abridge the rights of another...clearly any person has equal protection under the law. Should we discriminate because that person is unborn? If so, who else should we discriminate against?

We don't need to do anything in that regard. It doesn't follow that if we assign specific rights to a specific subset of people, we must also apply specific rights to other subsets.